Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

So in 2023 the people I know that are "middle" class take local beach vacations. They don't go out of the country to the Bahamas, or Aruba etc. The people I know that are "upper middle class" go on vacations to Aruba, Hawaii, Europe, Mexico etc. These are people with kids. Without kids it's completely different.

OP, I largely agree with your definition (and it fits my DH and I) but will note that I think part of the problem with discussing what constitutes working class versus middle class versus UMC or upper class is how much small shifts can change what people feel they can afford.

We know people in DC in their 30s who are dual income with an HHI of around 300k, who do not own a home and do not "feel" they can afford one. Now, I live in a condo. They will not buy a condo. I live in a neighborhood with a bad IB school (which my child does not attend). They will not buy a home with a bad IB school. So they might look at your list and say "we are middle class" but I will look at them and say "no you are not." They are just unwilling to compromise, but everyone compromises except the ultra wealthy. Even rich people compromise. We have rich friends who own gorgeous multi-million dollar homes with bad IB schools who are grumpy that they "have" to send their kids to private. They don't -- they could move to a suburb with amazing public schools and come out way ahead in the real estate deal. They don't want to. This does not magically make them middle class.

I think Jeff should create a separate forum for all of these what is middle class/upper middle class/upper class posts that posters are so obsessed with.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

Right? The bubble some people live in is insane.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

You think middle class families of 4 take international vacations every few years????

A numbers illustration of above, in the DMV. Median household income is $120K. Owning a house, easily being able to afford food and clothes, for a family is really challenging on that income.
$200K HHI income is 75th percentile. Now these basics are actually something achievable. Are $200K households taking multiple plane vacations per year? Probably not. Do they meet the basics comfortably? Yes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

I grew up actually middle class, and we did not take a vacation that involved a plane flight until I was in high school. "International" meant Canada. My parents supported a family of four, but it required careful budgeting, and there was not a ton of money for extras. We went out to eat maybe once a month. People define middle class based on feelings, which is silly, and based on what they can buy, which is not how it works. It's defined by where your income falls on the spectrum of income, even if you consider that based on region rather than nationally.

Part of this misalignment is that the "basic" lifestyle described here (not worrying about the necessities) is not something that people at median household incomes can actually achieve. You're describing a lifestyle that is more familiar for people at probably 75th percentile household income. So while the lifestyle feels "middle class," statistically these are not folks with median earnings.

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

This is the very definition of middle class. No luxuries, basic needs met. Now is this playing out in the real world? Probably not.

UMC includes significant savings, vacations, multiple cars, bigger home, with a mindset of not IF you can retire, but when.

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

To me I've always felt the best depiction of middle class is the tv show Roseanne. The majority of "middle class" descriptions outlined on this board are all forms of the upper middle class to me.

There is not much debate about MC or UMC. The debate is about UC/rich that few DCUMers want to put themselves in.

Anonymous wrote:There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday

What you said is good, but I would change it to owning a home before 40s. Buying at 35 is still middle class since many people don’t have families until then.

I would add:

- can afford 1 vacation involving a plane per year (most likely domestic, but with an international vacation once every few years)
- can easily support a family of 4 including extra supplemental activities such as school sports, with spouse making income as well
- each child has their own bedroom, or at most 2 kids of the same gender share a large room
- can afford extras like going out to the movies or a meal at an average sit down chain restaurant without sweating at all about money
- has an emergency fund of approx 2 months income

Depends where you live.

That’s not middle class. That is upper or upper middle.

There are so many posts about the income or wealth levels associated with being middle class. Setting aside dollar amount, what does MC mean to you.

For me:
Owning a home by your 30s, not necessarily at detached SFM
Can easily afford food, clothing, and utilities
Can afford a vehicle
Can retire someday