Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The demographic reality of LBGTQ families with kids is that they are more likely to live in low cost of living red states, more likely to be low income, and have a lower median family income than US families with kids as a whole. I know many LGBTQ migrant families, but I know even more who are looking for cheap/liberal/good schools-and that is a unicorn (I know I only have two where I live). So if you are a queer family with kids living on 50k in Alabama, what are the good options. And, LGBTQ families are more likely to have foster kids-I have a good friend who wanted to move out of TX with her family but she had a longterm foster child who she would have been forced to leave behind.

Here's the research that backs up what I wrote above: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/lgbt-parenting-us/

I think the other challenge is that when you're not made of money, the cost of a lawyer to sort out a sperm donor contract or a lawyer to organize a second parent adoption is so much. It's daunting especially with all the other baby expenses and no one wants to think it's necessary when you have a newborn.

Yeah, the moms may have not had or wanted to spend money on a 2nd parent adoption after the baby was born. Ours cost 2k and that was in a state where it was pretty straightforward and no home study was required.

To the pp: the two women were married when the baby was born, were both on the birth cert, and raised the child together for several years. The donor identified himself (on his blog) as a "know (gay) sperm donor."

They had $2k. They were saavy about the law and deliberately chose not to file it. The law exists for a reason! If you chose not to do the available paperwork demonstrating you are the parent, then the court may reasonably assume that you did not intend to be the parent. I think implicit in the judges decision is that the decision not to adopt indicated that Williams actually was not intending to be the parent b

How do you know that? And, how does being present for a chid's birth, signing the birth certificate, and raising the child for several years until the child was withheld by the other parent indicate not intending to parent. There are so many queer families throughout the US who don't pursue 2nd parent adoption because of money, laziness, lack of executive function, thinking they will never need the paperwork, believing that it's wrong for them to have to adopt their own child.

Anonymous wrote:I just read the opinion and I think it is problematic (based on my very quick read.) Here’s why. There were different routes for Williams to establish parentage: legal adoption or showing she was a “de facto” parent (ie acted like a parent). She deliberately chose not to do the legal adoption. The court clearly seemed to hold that choice against her in determining she was not a de facto parent, which does not seem right. The whole point of de facto is to have a different way to prove parentage when there is no legal adoption. Then the court completely skimmed over the evidence that Williams was a de facto parent, suggesting that 2 years may not be long enough. That’s not good - we all know how intense the bonding can be in the first 2 years. That’s when you truly become a parent! Ultimately wrt Williams (the non-bio “mother”) I think the court really just believed that the child’s best interests were to not do so, likely based on the stable home the bio parents had established and William’s apparent abuse. But that is outcome-driven and not a legitimate application of the law.

As for Vaughn (bio dad) I believe the decision is correct.

I think you're right. Absent an appeal, this would be an outlier decision by a 'special' judge in an Oklahoma County court that bent the law to meet the facts. I think the groups appealing are risking a far worse decision by an appellate court that will actually bind future judges where the facts aren't so bad for the non bio mom.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The demographic reality of LBGTQ families with kids is that they are more likely to live in low cost of living red states, more likely to be low income, and have a lower median family income than US families with kids as a whole. I know many LGBTQ migrant families, but I know even more who are looking for cheap/liberal/good schools-and that is a unicorn (I know I only have two where I live). So if you are a queer family with kids living on 50k in Alabama, what are the good options. And, LGBTQ families are more likely to have foster kids-I have a good friend who wanted to move out of TX with her family but she had a longterm foster child who she would have been forced to leave behind.

Here's the research that backs up what I wrote above: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/lgbt-parenting-us/

I think the other challenge is that when you're not made of money, the cost of a lawyer to sort out a sperm donor contract or a lawyer to organize a second parent adoption is so much. It's daunting especially with all the other baby expenses and no one wants to think it's necessary when you have a newborn.

Yeah, the moms may have not had or wanted to spend money on a 2nd parent adoption after the baby was born. Ours cost 2k and that was in a state where it was pretty straightforward and no home study was required.

To the pp: the two women were married when the baby was born, were both on the birth cert, and raised the child together for several years. The donor identified himself (on his blog) as a "know (gay) sperm donor."

Terminating parental rights isn't something that can be done through a blog entry. If he never signed them away, he's the father.

He had signed a donor agreement with the bio mom.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The demographic reality of LBGTQ families with kids is that they are more likely to live in low cost of living red states, more likely to be low income, and have a lower median family income than US families with kids as a whole. I know many LGBTQ migrant families, but I know even more who are looking for cheap/liberal/good schools-and that is a unicorn (I know I only have two where I live). So if you are a queer family with kids living on 50k in Alabama, what are the good options. And, LGBTQ families are more likely to have foster kids-I have a good friend who wanted to move out of TX with her family but she had a longterm foster child who she would have been forced to leave behind.

Here's the research that backs up what I wrote above: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/lgbt-parenting-us/

I think the other challenge is that when you're not made of money, the cost of a lawyer to sort out a sperm donor contract or a lawyer to organize a second parent adoption is so much. It's daunting especially with all the other baby expenses and no one wants to think it's necessary when you have a newborn.

Yeah, the moms may have not had or wanted to spend money on a 2nd parent adoption after the baby was born. Ours cost 2k and that was in a state where it was pretty straightforward and no home study was required.

To the pp: the two women were married when the baby was born, were both on the birth cert, and raised the child together for several years. The donor identified himself (on his blog) as a "know (gay) sperm donor."

They had $2k. They were saavy about the law and deliberately chose not to file it. The law exists for a reason! If you chose not to do the available paperwork demonstrating you are the parent, then the court may reasonably assume that you did not intend to be the parent. I think implicit in the judges decision is that the decision not to adopt indicated that Williams actually was not intending to be the parent b

Anonymous wrote:From the terrifying files: https://mombian.com/2023/02/15/oklahoma-grants-parentage-to-sperm-donor-over-nonbiological-mom/

She should have taken the time to adopt her child. That is the only legal way to have and connection.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The demographic reality of LBGTQ families with kids is that they are more likely to live in low cost of living red states, more likely to be low income, and have a lower median family income than US families with kids as a whole. I know many LGBTQ migrant families, but I know even more who are looking for cheap/liberal/good schools-and that is a unicorn (I know I only have two where I live). So if you are a queer family with kids living on 50k in Alabama, what are the good options. And, LGBTQ families are more likely to have foster kids-I have a good friend who wanted to move out of TX with her family but she had a longterm foster child who she would have been forced to leave behind.

Here's the research that backs up what I wrote above: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/lgbt-parenting-us/

I think the other challenge is that when you're not made of money, the cost of a lawyer to sort out a sperm donor contract or a lawyer to organize a second parent adoption is so much. It's daunting especially with all the other baby expenses and no one wants to think it's necessary when you have a newborn.

Yeah, the moms may have not had or wanted to spend money on a 2nd parent adoption after the baby was born. Ours cost 2k and that was in a state where it was pretty straightforward and no home study was required.

To the pp: the two women were married when the baby was born, were both on the birth cert, and raised the child together for several years. The donor identified himself (on his blog) as a "know (gay) sperm donor."

Terminating parental rights isn't something that can be done through a blog entry. If he never signed them away, he's the father.

I just read the opinion and I think it is problematic (based on my very quick read.) Here’s why. There were different routes for Williams to establish parentage: legal adoption or showing she was a “de facto” parent (ie acted like a parent). She deliberately chose not to do the legal adoption. The court clearly seemed to hold that choice against her in determining she was not a de facto parent, which does not seem right. The whole point of de facto is to have a different way to prove parentage when there is no legal adoption. Then the court completely skimmed over the evidence that Williams was a de facto parent, suggesting that 2 years may not be long enough. That’s not good - we all know how intense the bonding can be in the first 2 years. That’s when you truly become a parent! Ultimately wrt Williams (the non-bio “mother”) I think the court really just believed that the child’s best interests were to not do so, likely based on the stable home the bio parents had established and William’s apparent abuse. But that is outcome-driven and not a legitimate application of the law.

As for Vaughn (bio dad) I believe the decision is correct.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The demographic reality of LBGTQ families with kids is that they are more likely to live in low cost of living red states, more likely to be low income, and have a lower median family income than US families with kids as a whole. I know many LGBTQ migrant families, but I know even more who are looking for cheap/liberal/good schools-and that is a unicorn (I know I only have two where I live). So if you are a queer family with kids living on 50k in Alabama, what are the good options. And, LGBTQ families are more likely to have foster kids-I have a good friend who wanted to move out of TX with her family but she had a longterm foster child who she would have been forced to leave behind.

Here's the research that backs up what I wrote above: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/lgbt-parenting-us/

I think the other challenge is that when you're not made of money, the cost of a lawyer to sort out a sperm donor contract or a lawyer to organize a second parent adoption is so much. It's daunting especially with all the other baby expenses and no one wants to think it's necessary when you have a newborn.

Yeah, the moms may have not had or wanted to spend money on a 2nd parent adoption after the baby was born. Ours cost 2k and that was in a state where it was pretty straightforward and no home study was required.

To the pp: the two women were married when the baby was born, were both on the birth cert, and raised the child together for several years. The donor identified himself (on his blog) as a "know (gay) sperm donor."

Anonymous wrote:The demographic reality of LBGTQ families with kids is that they are more likely to live in low cost of living red states, more likely to be low income, and have a lower median family income than US families with kids as a whole. I know many LGBTQ migrant families, but I know even more who are looking for cheap/liberal/good schools-and that is a unicorn (I know I only have two where I live). So if you are a queer family with kids living on 50k in Alabama, what are the good options. And, LGBTQ families are more likely to have foster kids-I have a good friend who wanted to move out of TX with her family but she had a longterm foster child who she would have been forced to leave behind.

Here's the research that backs up what I wrote above: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/lgbt-parenting-us/

I think the other challenge is that when you're not made of money, the cost of a lawyer to sort out a sperm donor contract or a lawyer to organize a second parent adoption is so much. It's daunting especially with all the other baby expenses and no one wants to think it's necessary when you have a newborn.

The case is a bit of a strange one though. The woman who gave birth to the child is now in a relationship with the “sperm donor” and has a second child with him. She has claimed abuse from her former partner and has a restraining order against her. And it sounds like there’s issues with the timing of the marriage and the laws around gay marriage in that state? I agree it’s concerning, but I don’t think it sets a precedent. I think it would help to have someone with more legal knowledge look at it.

Anonymous wrote:There’s a lot more to this story. If they truly held out the biological father as the social father, and had no paperwork on termination of his parental rights, then the decision sounds good. Conversely, the purported non-biological mother appears to have been abusive and may not have shown she actually was a de facto mother.

This isn’t really the right set of facts to get worked up over Oklahoma.

There is a lot more. Another story said that the bio mother and father are now together. That does not seem like a sperm donor situation.

There’s a lot more to this story. If they truly held out the biological father as the social father, and had no paperwork on termination of his parental rights, then the decision sounds good. Conversely, the purported non-biological mother appears to have been abusive and may not have shown she actually was a de facto mother.

This isn’t really the right set of facts to get worked up over Oklahoma.

The demographic reality of LBGTQ families with kids is that they are more likely to live in low cost of living red states, more likely to be low income, and have a lower median family income than US families with kids as a whole. I know many LGBTQ migrant families, but I know even more who are looking for cheap/liberal/good schools-and that is a unicorn (I know I only have two where I live). So if you are a queer family with kids living on 50k in Alabama, what are the good options. And, LGBTQ families are more likely to have foster kids-I have a good friend who wanted to move out of TX with her family but she had a longterm foster child who she would have been forced to leave behind.

Here's the research that backs up what I wrote above: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/lgbt-parenting-us/

This will be unpopular. But this is what you get for living in Oklahoma. It isn’t safe for lgbt families.

Same reason that dh and I wouldn’t visit Virginia when same sex marriage wasn’t legal there.

I get that these people have family there, are loved, have their lives there, it isn’t easy for everyone to move, someone has to take a stand. But these are our families and kids. Don’t love somewhere that is dangerous.

From the terrifying files: https://mombian.com/2023/02/15/oklahoma-grants-parentage-to-sperm-donor-over-nonbiological-mom/