Anonymous
02/07/2023 00:46
Subject: Re:DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
Anonymous wrote:OP here - thanks for all your responses. My niece has read the thread - I told her just to post herself but she is bizarrely paranoid and insisted I do another post (I explained to her that this was not a good look for someone who wants to be a lawyer..but oh well!!!).
Anyway - she isn't interested in doing a clerkship. So doing a clerkship to make herself more attractive to the Honors Program isn't her current plan.
She told me that not everyone for the DOJ Honors program goes straight out of law school - some apply after working a year or two. So if she gets a job offer from her firm after her 2L summer and then, after practicing, is still interested, then she would definitely consider that route.
Her main concern is the 'politics' of doing a 2L summer associate position and then getting a job offer (which the vast majority of 2L summer associates at her firm receive) - but then, applying to the DOJ honors offices she's interested in during her first term in 3L.
Basically - in the event she receives a permanent offer after her 2L summer, she is scared of doing anything that will make the firm lose confidence in her or pull the offer. That's why she is nervous about whether it's appropriate to (potentially) have a permanent offer in hand and then apply to the DOJ honors while hoping to keep the biglaw offer if she doesn't get a position through honors.
And that’s one of the reasons she should do a clerkship.
Unless things have changed since around 2005, you have to accept your offer with a firm fall of your third year in law school and you don’t find out about doj honors until after her clerkship. If she’s clerking, she can typically keep that offer from the law firm open while also applying to doj.
Why doesn’t she want to do a clerkship? That’s a big mistake. It’s a great experience.
Anonymous
02/07/2023 00:42
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
Anonymous wrote:She should do a federal clerkship. That’s a huge pro when seeking a DOJ honors program position. At least when I was working there 10 years ago, most hires had a clerkship under their belts.
The clerkship year or two will also give her time to apply to DOJ. A lot of firms will keep their offer open during the clerkship, with a signing bonus if you start at the law firm after. She can apply to DOJ honors during that year, and find out if she gets an offer without hopefully straining her relationship with the firm.
This
Anonymous
02/07/2023 00:34
Subject: Re:DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
OP here - thanks for all your responses. My niece has read the thread - I told her just to post herself but she is bizarrely paranoid and insisted I do another post (I explained to her that this was not a good look for someone who wants to be a lawyer..but oh well!!!).
Anyway - she isn't interested in doing a clerkship. So doing a clerkship to make herself more attractive to the Honors Program isn't her current plan.
She told me that not everyone for the DOJ Honors program goes straight out of law school - some apply after working a year or two. So if she gets a job offer from her firm after her 2L summer and then, after practicing, is still interested, then she would definitely consider that route.
Her main concern is the 'politics' of doing a 2L summer associate position and then getting a job offer (which the vast majority of 2L summer associates at her firm receive) - but then, applying to the DOJ honors offices she's interested in during her first term in 3L.
Basically - in the event she receives a permanent offer after her 2L summer, she is scared of doing anything that will make the firm lose confidence in her or pull the offer. That's why she is nervous about whether it's appropriate to (potentially) have a permanent offer in hand and then apply to the DOJ honors while hoping to keep the biglaw offer if she doesn't get a position through honors.
Anyway - she isn't interested in doing a clerkship. So doing a clerkship to make herself more attractive to the Honors Program isn't her current plan.
She told me that not everyone for the DOJ Honors program goes straight out of law school - some apply after working a year or two. So if she gets a job offer from her firm after her 2L summer and then, after practicing, is still interested, then she would definitely consider that route.
Her main concern is the 'politics' of doing a 2L summer associate position and then getting a job offer (which the vast majority of 2L summer associates at her firm receive) - but then, applying to the DOJ honors offices she's interested in during her first term in 3L.
Basically - in the event she receives a permanent offer after her 2L summer, she is scared of doing anything that will make the firm lose confidence in her or pull the offer. That's why she is nervous about whether it's appropriate to (potentially) have a permanent offer in hand and then apply to the DOJ honors while hoping to keep the biglaw offer if she doesn't get a position through honors.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 14:56
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
If she can get the DOJ honors spot, I think she should take it. I did 6 years at DOJ and loved it.
She can likely always get another law firm job post DOJ.
However, she should only take the DOJ honors program if she is willing to work at least as hard as she would at a law firm for a lot less money. The upside is that you have a lot more substantive responsibility for your cases at DOJ.
She can likely always get another law firm job post DOJ.
However, she should only take the DOJ honors program if she is willing to work at least as hard as she would at a law firm for a lot less money. The upside is that you have a lot more substantive responsibility for your cases at DOJ.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 14:54
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
Anonymous wrote:She should do a federal clerkship. That’s a huge pro when seeking a DOJ honors program position. At least when I was working there 10 years ago, most hires had a clerkship under their belts.
The clerkship year or two will also give her time to apply to DOJ. A lot of firms will keep their offer open during the clerkship, with a signing bonus if you start at the law firm after. She can apply to DOJ honors during that year, and find out if she gets an offer without hopefully straining her relationship with the firm.
+1, and as a current DOJ attorney I can tell you most of not all of the honors hires in my division are coming out of a clerkship. She's substantially more likely to get an interview/offer out of a clerkship.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 14:38
Subject: Re:DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
I am currently at DOJ and have been at biglaw in the past.
Assuming she can handle the lower salary, DOJ honors is a much better way to start off her career than any law firm. She will get far better experience and training at DOJ. And as other have noted, while the law firm can't keep an offer open for her, they definitely will not hold her choosing DOJ honors against her if she applies later.
Assuming she can handle the lower salary, DOJ honors is a much better way to start off her career than any law firm. She will get far better experience and training at DOJ. And as other have noted, while the law firm can't keep an offer open for her, they definitely will not hold her choosing DOJ honors against her if she applies later.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 14:28
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
Anonymous wrote:She should do a federal clerkship. That’s a huge pro when seeking a DOJ honors program position. At least when I was working there 10 years ago, most hires had a clerkship under their belts.
The clerkship year or two will also give her time to apply to DOJ. A lot of firms will keep their offer open during the clerkship, with a signing bonus if you start at the law firm after. She can apply to DOJ honors during that year, and find out if she gets an offer without hopefully straining her relationship with the firm.
correct. someone who is a viable candidate for DOJ honors should also be viable for clerkships. I don’t know how clerkship hiring is done now, but she should be sure she applies to the right number & type of judges. I got misadvised (basically not advised at all) by my Ivy lawschool and did not apply broadly enough or know that I needed to cultivate certain professors. I had to apply again in my 3L year and got lucky by having a former classmate clerking for my judge vouch for me, and finding a judge who really liked to hire women like me from my law school.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 14:24
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don’t think she can “circle back with the firm” if she doesn’t get the DOJ gig. However if she’s truly interested in the DOJ program, nothing prevents her from applying for it - she may just end up with two offers and have to choose one.
Not true. If she does well in 2L summer and gets an offer, they are almost certainly going to seriously consider hiring her after the honors year is done. She can’t extend the offer due to ethics rules, but she can reapply.
Most honors program positions are permanent
thanks for that clarification! here’s some more info I found:
https://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/honors-program-participating-components
DOJ honors sounds like a great way to start a career. If OP’s niece really wants to do it, she should prioritize getting the DOJ offer. Firms are a dime a dozen, and a firm would certainly have no issue retracting an offer if needed. She should just follow along both pathways as long as she can.
Looking at that list really makes me regret that I exited law school when Monica Goodling was in charge of DOJ hiring! ‘memba her? Good times.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 10:22
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
She should do a federal clerkship. That’s a huge pro when seeking a DOJ honors program position. At least when I was working there 10 years ago, most hires had a clerkship under their belts.
The clerkship year or two will also give her time to apply to DOJ. A lot of firms will keep their offer open during the clerkship, with a signing bonus if you start at the law firm after. She can apply to DOJ honors during that year, and find out if she gets an offer without hopefully straining her relationship with the firm.
The clerkship year or two will also give her time to apply to DOJ. A lot of firms will keep their offer open during the clerkship, with a signing bonus if you start at the law firm after. She can apply to DOJ honors during that year, and find out if she gets an offer without hopefully straining her relationship with the firm.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 10:22
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I don’t think she can “circle back with the firm” if she doesn’t get the DOJ gig. However if she’s truly interested in the DOJ program, nothing prevents her from applying for it - she may just end up with two offers and have to choose one.
Not true. If she does well in 2L summer and gets an offer, they are almost certainly going to seriously consider hiring her after the honors year is done. She can’t extend the offer due to ethics rules, but she can reapply.
Most honors program positions are permanent
Anonymous
02/05/2023 10:13
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
Anonymous wrote:I don’t think she can “circle back with the firm” if she doesn’t get the DOJ gig. However if she’s truly interested in the DOJ program, nothing prevents her from applying for it - she may just end up with two offers and have to choose one.
Not true. If she does well in 2L summer and gets an offer, they are almost certainly going to seriously consider hiring her after the honors year is done. She can’t extend the offer due to ethics rules, but she can reapply.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 10:12
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
If she is serious about a DOJ career, she should ABSOLUTELY take the DOJ honors spot. She should also be applying for federal clerkships at the same time.
If she doesn’t get hired FT at DOJ after honors, there will definitely be firms willing to take her after her honors year (or a clerkship year). She should ask around more about this though.
It is CRUCIAL for her to understand that law students with a serious interest in a non-firm path MUST take advantage of post-grad opportunities to establish a foothold, like fellowships and honors years. When everyone else is taking the easy route (going to a firm and making $$$) it is harder to understand the alternative career path. Of course DOJ and other agencies take early career lawyers after some time at a firm, but it’s not a guarantee. And then you have to spend years at a firm instead of actually litigating for the govt.
A clerkship would also obviously be a way for a young litigator to start out. In fact I cannot imagine that she would be in the running for DOJ honors and not a clerkship.
If she doesn’t get hired FT at DOJ after honors, there will definitely be firms willing to take her after her honors year (or a clerkship year). She should ask around more about this though.
It is CRUCIAL for her to understand that law students with a serious interest in a non-firm path MUST take advantage of post-grad opportunities to establish a foothold, like fellowships and honors years. When everyone else is taking the easy route (going to a firm and making $$$) it is harder to understand the alternative career path. Of course DOJ and other agencies take early career lawyers after some time at a firm, but it’s not a guarantee. And then you have to spend years at a firm instead of actually litigating for the govt.
A clerkship would also obviously be a way for a young litigator to start out. In fact I cannot imagine that she would be in the running for DOJ honors and not a clerkship.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 09:58
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
She doesn’t have to tell the firm she’s applying for honors. If she gets the firm offer then gets honors, she can decide what to do then.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 09:51
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
I don’t think she can “circle back with the firm” if she doesn’t get the DOJ gig. However if she’s truly interested in the DOJ program, nothing prevents her from applying for it - she may just end up with two offers and have to choose one.
Anonymous
02/05/2023 03:17
Subject: DOJ Honors Program (early lawyers)
My niece is in 2L at a top notch law school and has secured a summer spot at a top DC firm (where, if she does well, is likely to get a job offer).
She's also extremely interested in the DOJ honors programs - the areas that are most interesting to her (and that accept applications from law school) are criminal division, cyber fellowship, fbi, and national security division).
I have a couple of questions...
She's obviously interested in being employed after law school and (deservedly) proud of the DC firm she's secured her summer placement with and the strong possibility of the placement carrying over to a job offer.
If she receives a job offer after 2L summer does she just be thankful and forget about the DOJ interest - or is there any diplomatic way to apply for DOJ honors while having a post-L school offer (if she receives one). And if she were to apply for DOJ honors and not get it, could she then circle back to the firm?
The firm she's summering at has lawyers who have worked at high level in USG as political appointees - but we're just not sure about the 'politics' of a summer student who (potentially) has a job offer - and then wants to apply for DOJ honors but then keep to DC biglaw job if the honors application doesn't result in a job.
Can anyone with knowledge about the realities and politics of this sort of scenario comment.
She's also extremely interested in the DOJ honors programs - the areas that are most interesting to her (and that accept applications from law school) are criminal division, cyber fellowship, fbi, and national security division).
I have a couple of questions...
She's obviously interested in being employed after law school and (deservedly) proud of the DC firm she's secured her summer placement with and the strong possibility of the placement carrying over to a job offer.
If she receives a job offer after 2L summer does she just be thankful and forget about the DOJ interest - or is there any diplomatic way to apply for DOJ honors while having a post-L school offer (if she receives one). And if she were to apply for DOJ honors and not get it, could she then circle back to the firm?
The firm she's summering at has lawyers who have worked at high level in USG as political appointees - but we're just not sure about the 'politics' of a summer student who (potentially) has a job offer - and then wants to apply for DOJ honors but then keep to DC biglaw job if the honors application doesn't result in a job.
Can anyone with knowledge about the realities and politics of this sort of scenario comment.