FOG - Fear Obligation Guilt

Your mom is a master of FOG. You are the slave. Now that you know, you are the willing slave. It's your life, do what you need to do so that you are okay with your choices. No one is judging you and there are no right or wrong choices. Just what's right or wrong for you. Whatever she chooses to do with her life isn't your fault, no matter how much she FOGs you. Sorry. It's horribly difficult and unpleasant, no matter how you slice it.

OP here. Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I’m sorry that you have had similar experiences. I am especially sorry to the PP who suffered physical and verbal abuse at the hands of family. I can’t imagine what you’ve been through but I hope you are in a good place now.

I’m still not sure how I’m going to handle this. One big issue is that my mom has verbalized suicidal thoughts before (never had a serious attempt but has some stuff to hurt herself). So, while she isn’t actively expressing such thoughts, and is under the care of a psychiatrist, I am worried that if I cut her off, she may hurt herself. So I stay.

Anonymous wrote:I wish I could tell your. I’ve had long periods of estrangement from my mom. Then a couple of years ago I got back in touch. A year later she was diagnosed with terminal cancer. She’s been living with us for 7 months. Tonight I gave money to go stay in a hotel for a few days.

Last week I found her stooped over and immobile in the kitchen. Tuesday her oncologist said she showed up for chemo drunk. And then I found she was spiking her mouthwash is already 30% alcohol. I had to get her out of the house to think about her choices. It would only be a short time before the abusive tirades start again. It’s a hopeless situation. It’s my own fault I let her back in. I love her though she’s a very damaged human being.

I am so sorry for all you have been through.

I am curious why she is doing chemo if it is terminal? How old is she? I would think if she is an addict, knowing it's terminal she might choose hospice where she can get great medication to feel as comfortable as possible. You could ask if that medication mix could include something like xanex to keep her calm/keep her from raging.

I wish I could tell your. I’ve had long periods of estrangement from my mom. Then a couple of years ago I got back in touch. A year later she was diagnosed with terminal cancer. She’s been living with us for 7 months. Tonight I gave money to go stay in a hotel for a few days.

Last week I found her stooped over and immobile in the kitchen. Tuesday her oncologist said she showed up for chemo drunk. And then I found she was spiking her mouthwash is already 30% alcohol. I had to get her out of the house to think about her choices. It would only be a short time before the abusive tirades start again. It’s a hopeless situation. It’s my own fault I let her back in. I love her though she’s a very damaged human being.

Sorry for everyone who had to live with this.

I estranged myself from my narcissistic parents (two of them - my childhood was pure joy!) just after my 30th birthday, 22 years ago. There was pain and sadness over the years but mostly relief. In my case it helped that my parents never tried to reconcile - a couple of letters from my mother over the years which were actually communal letters to everyone at Xmas - she only started this in her last few years of life - with an extra note included for me that essentially reiterated all the ways I had massively disappointed her and why couldn’t I just get over it? I never replied. I sent them a couple of Xmas cards with no special note but included my current phone number which she chose never to use. My mother had a long-standing habit of holding grudges that long preceded my birth, so I was unsurprised and her stonewalling and in the few things she did write to me it was clear she didn’t take any responsibility for the things I was done with (verbal and physical abuse by my father and brother and her vehement defense of their right to use me as personal and family scapegoat, and my need to just suck it up and play my role) and so there was no reason for me to open the door to conversation on it. Like many narcissistic parents do upon being estranged from their kids, she turned to trying to blackball me with other family because of course the problem HAD to be me and not her abusive bully husband and son and her own abusive self, so she wrote letters telling family what a terrible child I had been, so difficult to raise etc., but nobody believed her because they’d all known me my whole life and knew I was a terrified (of my parents) child who was if anything overly obedient and afraid to speak up for myself for the first 30 years of my life. The fact that she and my father had boasted to anyone who would listen about my many academic and professional accomplishments for years (although never a word of praise to me) made it hard for anyone to believe that I was the person she tried to make me out as when I dared to cut her off. Be aware that this is a common tactic of narcissistic parents when their kids cut them off - so if you care, have an idea in your mind how you will respond to other relatives who ask WTF is going on. Most of my close relatives knew I’d been abused my whole life and didn’t ever scold me for my choice - I had one cousin who did and I just felt sorry for her because my parents never had anything good to say about her and she chose them over our relationship which seemed very strange to me but with time I’ve realized that she was so invested in her delusion that she had a loving aunt and uncle she couldn’t open herself to the truth. We weren’t really all that close so I didn’t feel a need to fight for the relationship or to reveal to her the awful things my parents had said about her, her mother and her own family over the years. I’m a firm believer in not spreading pain if possible.

Narcissistic people are great at appearances and seeming like wonderful people outside the family dynamic, yet most have no truly close friends because the veneer is hard to maintain. Just know that some people may not understand why and you just need to be strong in your convictions of what is right for you. I can’t say I really regret going no contact because I was suicidal at the time and continued close contact with my parents and hearing them tell me how worthless I was would have led to my life’s premature end. I still have their toxic playlist in my head and it gave me grief over the years, but I’ve gotten better and better at quieting it and I truly believe that without the estrangement I would never have been free to fully self actualize. Narcissistic parents are a toxin like no other, and the abuse they inflict on a developing mind is worse than the physical abuse. I was beaten plenty in childhood - with belts, yardsticks, chain dog leashes, my father’s and brother’s fists - but those scars are long since healed. The being told I was a mistake that ruined my father’s life, and by extension my mother’s marriage and life, and all the other cruel things said to me day in and day out for decades is what formed the pain I will carry until I die. That sticks and stones BS is exactly that, total and complete horse crap. Words can inflict deep damage on a developing brain and the pain lasts a lifetime - you learn to cope and try to reparent and love yourself, but your are scarred by that parenting. You have every right to walk away from more of it being inflicted on you. You have honored your parent for as long as you could and you need to honor yourself. Your parent won’t change - narcissists are highly resistant to treatment even if they are willing to go and most aren’t.

My mother died 12 years after estrangement. It hurt to know that the dream of her someday being the mother I deserved was completely dead, but I knew it had been dead before I was ever born so . . . I still struggle at holidays and watching movies with happy families and seeing happy families in person, but it is what it is. This is the life I got dealt and I know I never deserved it, I was a good and loving kid and my parents were just incapable of loving me back. They didn’t really love my brother either, even though he was the golden - and they raised him to be a bully wife abuser and he has no relationships with any of his siblings or other extended family so I don’t think he got the better deal, just a different raw deal.

Narc parents deserve nothing from their victim children. I wish you some peace and happiness apart from the expectation of happiness in your family of origin.

I've been estranged from my narcisstic, alcoholic father for 20+ years. I'm not in therapy now, but my therapist during that time was incredibly helpful in my thinking through the possibilities short of full estrangement.

In my case, it was not possible to set any boundaries or limits that my father would respect. I think it's reasonable to try the boundary-setting, but for narcissists, they can't (or won't) recognize that they are at fault, so at least in my experience my father would run rough-shod over every boundary I tried to set.

I loved my father, too -- it was hard because he was a pretty great dad when I was young, and got worse and worse over time as his alcoholism got worse and as he went off the deep end with right-wing conspiracy theories, corresponding with my growing into a teenager and a young adult with my own views and opinions as opposed to an adoring child who just looked up to my father.

I grieved the end of our relationship like crazy. My therapist helped me understand that part of that grief was letting go of the fantasy that my dad would love me more than he loved his attachment to behaving in ways that hurt me repeatedly and that I'd asked him to stop. I am sure my cutting my dad off hurt him, but it was the only way to stop him from hurting me, so I had to do it.

I've never regretted it -- I do regret that my dad couldn't or wouldn't stop his awful behaviors, but I gave him years worth of chances to do so and I was just done.

Anonymous wrote:OP, you are in love with a fantasy. That said, do this --- and it's only an example. Call her every Thursday at 7:30pm and talk for 10 minutes. See her -at a neutral location so you can get up and leave - for 20 minutes the first Saturday of every month. Whatever. You decide. She doesn't decide. You decide. Pick a schedule you can endure and be consistent. Very consistent. Always end the "visit", always to align with your schedule. Never see her in a location that isn't neutral. Never provide her a ride. You must always be able to get up and leave and drive yourself away.

And never expect her to change, obviously.

I posted before and I agree with all of this except stopping therapy. The therapist can help keep you managing the relationship. She/he can help you handle when your mom inevitably pushes boundaries, when she rages (if she does that) and she/he can give you more ideas to keep your wits about you when buttons are getting pushes.

Yes, to neutral location or in public. If it's at her home, hang out on the front porch where neighbors can see if it's warm enough. You need to be a situation where she doesn't feel too comfortable going into nasty mode. Regularity does help some difficult elderly so calling at the same time may work. Always have an excuse to leave in person visits and end a phone call if she acts up. If it gets to be too much, skip a week and see if she is better after that. I totally agree with never driving together. In fact, I cannot be in a car with my mother for fear I will get into an accident. Alone in an enclosed space she feels safe to throw verbal daggers in-between criticism of my driving.

Re:never expect her to change...yes and no. Keep expectations low, but you have a right to expect her not to cross a line and when she does you have a right to reinforce the boundary. You should be able to expect her not to raise her voice or hurl insults and if she does, time to exit stage left and skip a week or 2.

PP again. And I'd stop the therapy - about this. Otherwise it just keeps you talking about it weekly, keeping it on your mind front & center.

OP, you are in love with a fantasy. That said, do this --- and it's only an example. Call her every Thursday at 7:30pm and talk for 10 minutes. See her -at a neutral location so you can get up and leave - for 20 minutes the first Saturday of every month. Whatever. You decide. She doesn't decide. You decide. Pick a schedule you can endure and be consistent. Very consistent. Always end the "visit", always to align with your schedule. Never see her in a location that isn't neutral. Never provide her a ride. You must always be able to get up and leave and drive yourself away.

And never expect her to change, obviously.

There are many things to try first. I would make your boundaries clear to her and at least give her a chance to shape up. Figure out with your therapist what those boundaries are and what you might say. Then figure out what you will say when/if she keeps violated them.

I would also try a break if that doesn't work where you can be honest with something like "Things are crazy busy at work and I will be out of touch for x days/weeks because I have to focus on that. See if she gives you space. If she does, that is a good thing, if she doesn't that is info too. You can find other ways to distance yourself with your therapist.

You say you love her which is why you don't want to "divorce" unless you truly genuinely try all.the.strategies and give her many chances to turn it around. You want to be at the point of no return where the love is lost and where it is more painful to stay than to live with hurting her. You say you don't want to hurt her and you will absolutely hurt her so at least for me, it would bring me peace to know I tried everything I could to have a tolerable relationship.

You don’t need anyone’s permission. You don’t want to hurt her, but you’re okay with her hurting you?

This sounds like a great thing to discuss with your therapist.

🤗s to you OP!

My elderly mom (72) is emotionally abusive and has been all my life. She has been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and with bipolar tendencies (although she is not on any mood stabilizers). It's a continuous cycle of her hurting me, sometimes being sorry but mostly just expecting me to get over whatever toxicity she has spewed my way, and denying she ever did anything wrong. Every couple of months she blows up at me with the craziest, most stressful tantrums. I have gotten therapy and the advice is to just "treat her like an unreasonable patient" that I may encounter at work (I'm in healthcare) b/c she won't change, to distance myself and not take things personally. It gives me so much anxiety to even think about calling her or visiting her. A part of me wants her out of my life completely. Just decreasing contact won't work. I have tried it in the past and she just works her way back in by apologizing and giving me a guilt-trip. I need to make a stronger break.
The issue is, I love my mom ( even though I think she is a horrible person and I resent her for so many reasons) and don't want to hurt her--so I'm worried that I won't be able to follow through. But I feel like I need to for my own well-being

Has anyone "divorced" a parent who can give me advice on how to go about this, regrets they may have had, what they might have done differently, what to expect, etc?