Anonymous wrote:Sometimes people/patients/families fail to accept normal aging/end of life processes. Doing invasive treatments that will not prolong someone’s life statistically but will expose them to pain and risk of disabling complications may not be good for them. Patients may die during surgery or of post op complications. Everybody thinks the percentages will go in their favor, but some people with be in that percent of those who die. Physicians have to act in the best interest of the patient even if the patient may not agree. She could doctor shop and maybe find someone else if she likes. Often elderly patients with health issues will die of something else before the disease process takes them.

Doctors also acti in the best interest of the hospital...

Anonymous wrote:My parents have complained that the doctors treat them like they are 'expired' and not worth fixing. The doctors have told them they can't (or won't) try to address certain health problems they have. Instead they're told it's old age, just live with it. Has anyone else heard of this type of refusal to treat? What's the cutoff age?

This is humanity on the doctor’s part. They have a duty to help their patients have the best possible quality of life when treating problems. For instance, when a 60-year-old woman has problems that may be alleviated with a hysterectomy, an 80-year-old woman might not receive the same benefit. Doctors sometimes can/will treat problems at the patient’s request. They may also decline not to do so based on potential outcomes.

I hope your parents’ doctors are being kind and compassionate; however, they do need to face their own mortality and realize not every problem can or should be cured. Circle of life.

Sometimes people/patients/families fail to accept normal aging/end of life processes. Doing invasive treatments that will not prolong someone’s life statistically but will expose them to pain and risk of disabling complications may not be good for them. Patients may die during surgery or of post op complications. Everybody thinks the percentages will go in their favor, but some people with be in that percent of those who die. Physicians have to act in the best interest of the patient even if the patient may not agree. She could doctor shop and maybe find someone else if she likes. Often elderly patients with health issues will die of something else before the disease process takes them.

Anonymous wrote:It’s not a refusal to treat - it’s a recognition that the pain/recovery of surgery (for example) isn’t worth the minimal gains of lifestyle. Plus surgeons guard their stats and don’t want to operate on an 80 year old who will die on the table.

This. They are being humane. The risks of certain meds mixing with meds they are on or causing issues past a certain age are real. There are tremendous risks with surgeries. It's about quality of life not quantity. It's not just about dying on the table. Nothing like having a loved one come out of surgery with dementia and now the person is belligerent and miserable.

Anything that requires a general anesthetic, you probably don't want to do it after a certain age. Tough to bounce back from that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/

I agree with a lot of what this guy says. IMO "we" do too much to prolong life, with no quality of life. I saw a lot of comments during the early Covid days along the lines of "We all have to lock down or else my 97 year old grandmother with (lists 7 or 8 serious-terminal health conditions) might DIE!"

But who are you to say whether someone has quality of life? My mom with cancer said she wanted to live as long as possible and wanted every treatment possible. Maybe someone else would look at her and say her quality of life wasn't worth it, but it's her life and should be her choice.

When my FIL had cancer, he also wanted to live as long as possible. But the doctors were really frank about what his quality of life would be. My Mom had a subdural hematoma and I had to choose whether or not to do the surgery. They 100% would have done the surgery. But I spoke with the neurologist from the ICU (vs the neurosurgeon) and he was really honest about what it would be like after the surgery. The recovery and chance of reoccurrence. So I made the decision to not do the surgery.

Also, many people have unrealistic expectations based on TV shows. Research what happens to older people if they get CPR. It is brutal and an older body is destroyed. Living longer shouldn't be the threshold for whether or not to do a medical procedure. It should be will this allow me to have decent quality of life while I'm alive.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/

I agree with a lot of what this guy says. IMO "we" do too much to prolong life, with no quality of life. I saw a lot of comments during the early Covid days along the lines of "We all have to lock down or else my 97 year old grandmother with (lists 7 or 8 serious-terminal health conditions) might DIE!"

But who are you to say whether someone has quality of life? My mom with cancer said she wanted to live as long as possible and wanted every treatment possible. Maybe someone else would look at her and say her quality of life wasn't worth it, but it's her life and should be her choice.

Sure it's her choice. It's also the physician's choice whether to treat her for certain things that in the physician's mind are not likely to lead to good outcomes.

Way too vague. What health problems are your parents talking about? How old are your parents?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/

I agree with a lot of what this guy says. IMO "we" do too much to prolong life, with no quality of life. I saw a lot of comments during the early Covid days along the lines of "We all have to lock down or else my 97 year old grandmother with (lists 7 or 8 serious-terminal health conditions) might DIE!"

But who are you to say whether someone has quality of life? My mom with cancer said she wanted to live as long as possible and wanted every treatment possible. Maybe someone else would look at her and say her quality of life wasn't worth it, but it's her life and should be her choice.

If she's paying for it out of pocket, sure.

Anonymous wrote:https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/

I agree with a lot of what this guy says. IMO "we" do too much to prolong life, with no quality of life. I saw a lot of comments during the early Covid days along the lines of "We all have to lock down or else my 97 year old grandmother with (lists 7 or 8 serious-terminal health conditions) might DIE!"

But who are you to say whether someone has quality of life? My mom with cancer said she wanted to live as long as possible and wanted every treatment possible. Maybe someone else would look at her and say her quality of life wasn't worth it, but it's her life and should be her choice.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/

I agree with a lot of what this guy says. IMO "we" do too much to prolong life, with no quality of life. I saw a lot of comments during the early Covid days along the lines of "We all have to lock down or else my 97 year old grandmother with (lists 7 or 8 serious-terminal health conditions) might DIE!"

it's not a refusal to treat. the risk of treatment itself sometimes out weights risk posed by health problems. more so as we get older.

Oh that’s really sad.

A relative of mine said that her father has cancerous spots on his arms that he just didn’t get taken care of because they healed poorly, and he didn’t have long anyway. He was I think 98.

Yes part of it is “is the solution worse than the problem?” But that’s true at any age. I think there is just a lot of ageism and often doctors just aren’t very empathetic.

It’s not a refusal to treat - it’s a recognition that the pain/recovery of surgery (for example) isn’t worth the minimal gains of lifestyle. Plus surgeons guard their stats and don’t want to operate on an 80 year old who will die on the table.

My parents have complained that the doctors treat them like they are 'expired' and not worth fixing. The doctors have told them they can't (or won't) try to address certain health problems they have. Instead they're told it's old age, just live with it. Has anyone else heard of this type of refusal to treat? What's the cutoff age?