Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You did the right thing.

I can see that I'm spoiling for a similar fight with my mom as my dad is 100% for cremation and my mother thinks that is horrible. I will fight tooth and nail to get him what he wants, just like you did.

She's hurting, everyone is hurting. This will blow over, eventually.

I would be interested to try and figure out who told. Not a witch hunt, but I would try to figure it out.

I doubt anyone told her. I am sure she knew her husband wanted his ashes near his parents; she engineered this whole scenario as a cruel loyalty exercise. She knew the kids would fulfill the dad’s wishes. She just needed a reason to feel mad at those closest to her.

The interesting question is, did she push them away on purpose because she feared them abandoning her? So better to ditch others before they dump you? Or is she trying to test the limits of their love, like do they love mom more than dad? Sick, twisted, sorry you are going through this at the same time you lost your father.

OP here. The last line is a curious line to me. My Mom has a history of pushing away family. She has not talked to her 1 sibling, who is now on his deathbed, for over a decade; she always cites lots of reasons why she claims the sibling and sibling's spouse has harmed her. She doesn't talk to any blood uncles or aunts or cousins anymore, all for the basically the same reasons- harm she said they caused to her, often decades ago. She has very few, if any, close friends; most are casual acquaintances. And she has stories and stories of how my Dad's family has harmed her and my Dad over the decades as well. I have been wondering the past 2 weeks if the whole ordeal with my Dad's ashes is the reason she's going to use to push my sibling and I away too.... she has already demonized our spouses behind our backs (she complains about my spouse to my sibling and vice versa). And there was a time about 10 years ago when my Mom called me drunkedly in the middle of the night after she and my Dad fought and my Dad left to get some space, and she claimed he was leaving her, and when I tried, badly, to calm her down, she told me I loved my father more than her and hung up on me, so I know there is that constant undercurrent of loyalty and abandonment there for her.

Also: I was raised by my parents to respect elders, always respect and care for your parents, etc., even if it means great sacrifice, and now I am wondering if that was just a way to manipulate my sibling and I. Looking back now, I almost wonder if it stunted my sibling and I in our adult lives; we're always the children, never the adults. At the other end, we only talk 1x/week, and my Mom does not handle random drop ins well, or any spontaneous plans, so I've always had to call in advance to arrange for a time to come and visit. She has to control when and how any interaction take place.

Anyways, my sibling started therapy awhile ago and am beginning to think I need to as well. There's a lot I see that I need to work through as I look back on what I wrote. Thanks for the feedback- both positive and negative. Obviously this is taking up a lot of mental space in my head, and I am tired of it. Appreciate those who were willing to read just so I could get some of it out and stop thinking on it. I don't want to be my mother constantly stewing on things....

You know this drama isn’t really about the ashes. Tell your mother to do whatever she likes with the ashes and stop talking about it.

Why didn’t you and your sister just use some of your bags to spread on your dad’s parents’ graves?

Anonymous wrote:You wrote a long post and seem very caught up in your emotions. What your post boils down to is this: your dad expressed his preference before his death, your mom as next of kin expressed her preference after his death, you did what you wanted.

I think you did the wrong thing for two reasons: 1) your mom is next of kin and she is the only person who has the legal authority to possess and/or dispose of your father's ashes as such her decision is the only one to be considered, and 2) you purposefully violated the rules of the cemetery where you spread the ashes. I wish you had been caught by the cemetery because then you would have suffered some consequences form your violation of its rules. Your mom would be well within her rights to contact them and tell them what you have done. I hope she does.

And, I get it. I want to be cremated as well. However, my next of kin or executor is the only person who will be making decisions about what happens to my ashes. I don't want a bunch of random people running around doing whatever the heck they want to do regardless of whether I've told them that or not.

People who are dying make a lot of statements that they might not make in other circumstances. Your dad's will and your dad's conversations with your mom precede any death bed conversation you had and should take precedence.

Completely disagree. Dad wanted what he wanted; kudos to OP and her sister for not ignoring that in favor of a narcissist. The only thing I would have done differently OP, is I would have spread the whole last bag on his parents’ graves and none on her parents. You’re right that she’s only concerned with control, so just gray Rick her about this in the future. Don’t discuss, don’t engage at all. I would have denied it too.

You wrote a long post and seem very caught up in your emotions. What your post boils down to is this: your dad expressed his preference before his death, your mom as next of kin expressed her preference after his death, you did what you wanted.

I think you did the wrong thing for two reasons: 1) your mom is next of kin and she is the only person who has the legal authority to possess and/or dispose of your father's ashes as such her decision is the only one to be considered, and 2) you purposefully violated the rules of the cemetery where you spread the ashes. I wish you had been caught by the cemetery because then you would have suffered some consequences form your violation of its rules. Your mom would be well within her rights to contact them and tell them what you have done. I hope she does.

And, I get it. I want to be cremated as well. However, my next of kin or executor is the only person who will be making decisions about what happens to my ashes. I don't want a bunch of random people running around doing whatever the heck they want to do regardless of whether I've told them that or not.

People who are dying make a lot of statements that they might not make in other circumstances. Your dad's will and your dad's conversations with your mom precede any death bed conversation you had and should take precedence.

Anonymous wrote:You did the right thing.

I can see that I'm spoiling for a similar fight with my mom as my dad is 100% for cremation and my mother thinks that is horrible. I will fight tooth and nail to get him what he wants, just like you did.

She's hurting, everyone is hurting. This will blow over, eventually.

I would be interested to try and figure out who told. Not a witch hunt, but I would try to figure it out.

I doubt anyone told her. I am sure she knew her husband wanted his ashes near his parents; she engineered this whole scenario as a cruel loyalty exercise. She knew the kids would fulfill the dad’s wishes. She just needed a reason to feel mad at those closest to her.

The interesting question is, did she push them away on purpose because she feared them abandoning her? So better to ditch others before they dump you? Or is she trying to test the limits of their love, like do they love mom more than dad? Sick, twisted, sorry you are going through this at the same time you lost your father.

You are way too invested in pacifying your mom. Just refuse to talk about this. And if it means you don’t talk for a long time, then great.

Anonymous wrote:Sorry but this whole story is just strange including your Dad's requests. As far as your Mom is concerned I think I would just pretend like it didn't happen and if she brings it up just ignore and change the subject. What's done is done and this whole spreading the ashes in multiple places is just weird.

Actually, a lot of people express the wish to have their ashes spread in multiple places that were meaningful to them. It may seem strange to you, but in general it's not that strange at all.

You say, “I did what Dad wanted, not you.” Then hang up, walk away, whatev. Over and over.

Or you can be super spiteful and say “What’s done is done. Now tell us your wishes.” and sit there with a smirk.

You did the right thing.

I can see that I'm spoiling for a similar fight with my mom as my dad is 100% for cremation and my mother thinks that is horrible. I will fight tooth and nail to get him what he wants, just like you did.

She's hurting, everyone is hurting. This will blow over, eventually.

I would be interested to try and figure out who told. Not a witch hunt, but I would try to figure it out.

OP, I deeply sympathize, I also lost my father a couple years ago and I really think my mom in some way has lost her mind since then. Ive worked with a therapist to create healthy boundaries with her so that I can live my life without constantly litigating reality with an unstable person. It's hard work but the boundaries will really free you. I think you are posting because it's obvious that she acted badly but you will never be able to get her to see that, and that is a terrible feeling. I get it so deeply. You may never be able to convince her so focus on keeping your own life force alive!

Wow!
WAyyyyy too long of a post and you are giving your mom way too much time and attention.

First, I'm very sorry for your loss. You sound like a reasonable person, and what you did was the right thing to do. Please know this. Your mom sounds like she's mentally ill, has a personality disorder, or is entering dementia. I'd leave it up to her to contact you, and then I wouldn't discuss the ashes with her at all. If she brings it up, say you're not going to discuss it.

Sorry but this whole story is just strange including your Dad's requests. As far as your Mom is concerned I think I would just pretend like it didn't happen and if she brings it up just ignore and change the subject. What's done is done and this whole spreading the ashes in multiple places is just weird.

My father passed away over the holidays from dementia. My Mom, who was difficult to deal with at times before, has become near impossible to deal with since my Dad passed. I have so, so many examples of how she has become impossible, but suffice it to say she has always had narrsistic, manipulative, victimization tendencies that have only been more magnified w/her grief. I and my sibling have tried to be empathetic to her emotions during this time, but its becoming more and more difficult as she seemingly becomes more angry and depressed and refuses to seek counseling.

We had my father cremated, and when he was still cognizant, he had expressed to my Mom, my sibling and I where he wanted to his ashes spread, to include on his parent's grave. In Feb. we spread half his ashes near the home he and Mom built, and then recently we all traveled to where he was from to spread the other half on the farm he was raised on. Of the 2nd half of my Dad's ashes, my Mom had it spilt up into 5 bags; 1 for her, myself, my sibling, and then the oldest grandchild, with the final bag to be spread on his parents grave. All of this was inline w/my Dad's wishes.

Now, my Mom has never met a "rule" she could break. She is an absolute rule abider. So, for some reason, she thought she needed to call the cemetery where my grandparents are buried, which is a public Catholic cemetery in the town my Dad grew up in. Of course, the Catholics frown on spreading ashes in general, so naturally the local church in town told my Mom that no, they didn't really advise we spread what little remained of my Dad's ashes on his parents grave. So my Mom said nope, we're not going to spread Dad's ashes there, what if the Church finds out, they told us no, they don't approve of it, it could reflect poorly on your Dad's brother and his wife who live in town (who mind you are near 80 and don't even belong to the Catholic Church), and so on. Excuse after excuse. Mom told my sibling and I that instead, Dad's remaining ashes are going to be spread on HER parents graves, 3 hours away from my Dad's hometown in a completely different state, and that's final, end of discussion. My sibling and I are like, say what? Dad had a good relationship with his in-laws, but he expressly said he wanted some of his ashes on his parents grave. How many people would be okay with their ashes being spread on their in-laws graves, but not their parents grave, when it was their expressed wish to be spread on their parents grave? I mean, how bizarre?

This didn't sit well with my sibling and I, and every time we tried to bring it up, our Mom shut down the conversation. Since the plan was to have me go spread the final bag of my Dad's ashes at my Mom's parents grave (since I was the only 1 going there after we spent time in my Dad's hometown), I talked to my sibling and asked instead of continuing to push the topic with our Mom, if we should just still try to honor our Dad's wishes, and sprinkle half of the remaining bag on his parent's grave before I went to my Mom's hometown and not tell our Mom, and then I would go as planned and spread the remainder of our Dad's ashes on her parents grave. We both felt strongly that we needed to honor our Dad's wishes, and also that we couldn't tell our Mom or she would flip out. So we agreed to do it if the opportunity presented itself, and not tell our Mom. And our Mom was absolutely horrible the week leading up to the spreading of the rest of my Dad's ashes; very passive aggressive, sending angry texts - the best was about how my dare my husband post pictures on FB while her husband's ashes were siting in our car, since she asked us to drive w/my Dad's ashes back to his hometown so she didn't have to fly with them- and just really, really unpleasant overall and showing no interest in anything other than reminding people of her great loss, her great sorrow, her, her, her. Never mind the rest of us- me, my sibling, our spouses and children, or my Dad's siblings, his nieces and nephews and his cousins are all also grieving. It was just about her and her needs and wants as my Dad's spouse. It was so bad that when my sibling got up to give a speech to the family that had gathered to celebrate our Dad prior to the dispersal of his ashes, my Mom stood up there next to my sibling the entire time, interrupting my sibling's speech throughout with commentary. My sibling had worked for weeks with a therapist on the speech and was so anxious about delivering it w/o breaking down, and my Mom's behavior during the speech, hogging the limelight, completely threw my sibling off and made them so upset afterwards. My Mom assigned poems and readings to me, my sibling, my sibling's spouse, and even wrote the greeting my husband was to give to gathered family. We apparently couldn't be trusted to choose a poem that meant something to us, or my husband, who's a gifted speaker and was raised in a very religious household, to speak off the cuff. It had to be what my Mom wanted to have read and said, and no one else.

So, anyways, the day came where we spread my Dad's ashes on the farm, my Mom gives me the final bag of my Dad's ashes to transport to her hometown to spread on her parents grave, and then my sibling and I sneak away with our families, make a quick run to the cemetery, sprinkle maybe a 3rd of the small bag of ashes that was left on my Dad's parents grave, and then leave. Were there maybe a max of 5 minutes. Then we rejoin our extended family later in the afternoon, and listen as my Mom just tears apart my Dad's mother - in front of one of her sons- for a good chunk of the afternoon. My Dad's Mom was never an affection grandmother, but I never doubted she loved me, my sibling, and cousins, and she was always doing things to show us how she loved us- making us clothes, cooking food and taking us out to eat, dragging us along to bingo at the church, dropping us off at the mall or the movies, etc. But my Mom has always loved to paint her as this awful woman.

So, long story now short, I'm sure you know how this goes: my Mom found out 3 days later, a day after I and my family spread the rest of my Dad's ashes on her parents grave, that my sibling and I spread a bit of my Dad's ashes on his parents graves. How, I have no idea. And she lost her $hit. Blowing up my phone with texts about how I had absolutely no right to do what we did. That I knew what I was doing was wrong and that's why my sibling and I didn't tell her. That's she's never been so shocked and disappointed in us in her life. There was nothing I could say to justify it. Etc. Texting to me like I'm still a child instead of someone in her mid-40s. And never mind it was Dad's wish. I had to tell her to stop; that I wasn't going to get into it over text. And I have not heard a peep from her since; it's been about 2 weeks now. My sibling called her yesterday, to at least try to engage in a conversation about it, and she hung up within 4 minutes, then called my sibling back and hung up on my sibling a 2nd time within 5 more minutes.

I don't know why I am posting this. I know we should've told her what we planned to do, but if we had, Mom would've prevented us from honoring our Dad's wish. And I'm really not sorry about what we did; I would do it again. I just don't like we had to go behind my Mom's back to do it, and of course, risk upsetting her if she found out. Part of me thinks she's just really upset that fulfilling our Dad's final wish was more important to my sibling and I than hers. That she can't control us, which speaks to greater control issues in general. Or that we couldn't talk to her and come an agreement about my Dads wishes; that there could never be any conversation; just what she wanted, not what we could agree to as a family, or more importantly, how we could still honor my Dad's wishes. I don't even know a path forward from here. I am just so tired of all of her manipulations, and narrcism, and victimization, and how it affects me, my work, my time with my husband and my kids, and I think I just need to vent it out into the void....