Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does Alyssa Milano talk about moral theology/Christian ethics in this video? That is what we are talking about here.

Did you watch the video?

No, that is why I am asking. I was hoping it would be a easy and quick to answer so I know if I should watch it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does Alyssa Milano talk about moral theology/Christian ethics in this video? That is what we are talking about here.

Did you watch the video?

DP I watched the first few minutes and it appears to be about the history of abortion in the US. If it talks about moral theology, PP should flag the exact minutes in which this done.

I kind of question Alyssa Milano as an authoritative voice for the history or the moral theology for abortion as she cites no backup for her assertions.

Anonymous wrote:Does Alyssa Milano talk about moral theology/Christian ethics in this video? That is what we are talking about here.

Did you watch the video?

Yes, we know the Catholic Church hierarchy says there is no Catholic argument for abortion. But they are not the entirety of the Catholic Church. There are more than 200 Catholic colleges in the United States alone, and more than 2,500 Catholic religious orders and institutes in the world. That means there are thousands of Catholic moral theologians thinking about bioethics, which includes abortion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no Catholic arguments in favor of abortion. It has always been considered homicide, even prior to the resolution of the “ensoulment” issue. Primacy of individual conscience does not apply in the face of perennial, unambiguous teaching.

Really? It's my understanding that before 1869, early abortion before quickening was not considered homicide and not subject to excommunication.

What Church or legal documentation do you have for your understanding?

Not PP but Try this:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12340403/#:~:text=In%20the%20early%20Roman%20Catholic,with%20excommunication%20as%20the%20punishment.

The Catholic Church regularly backdates new ideas. "This is what we always taught."

Thanks for doing this research and finding an NIH abstract supporting app's understanding.

Sorry but the Catholic Church is explicit that there is no Catholic argument for abortion. Advocating for abortion is a grave sin.

Does Alyssa Milano talk about moral theology/Christian ethics in this video? That is what we are talking about here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no Catholic arguments in favor of abortion. It has always been considered homicide, even prior to the resolution of the “ensoulment” issue. Primacy of individual conscience does not apply in the face of perennial, unambiguous teaching.

Really? It's my understanding that before 1869, early abortion before quickening was not considered homicide and not subject to excommunication.

What Church or legal documentation do you have for your understanding?

Not PP but Try this:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12340403/#:~:text=In%20the%20early%20Roman%20Catholic,with%20excommunication%20as%20the%20punishment.

The Catholic Church regularly backdates new ideas. "This is what we always taught."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no Catholic arguments in favor of abortion. It has always been considered homicide, even prior to the resolution of the “ensoulment” issue. Primacy of individual conscience does not apply in the face of perennial, unambiguous teaching.

Really? It's my understanding that before 1869, early abortion before quickening was not considered homicide and not subject to excommunication.

Yes, that's my understanding also.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are no Catholic arguments in favor of abortion. It has always been considered homicide, even prior to the resolution of the “ensoulment” issue. Primacy of individual conscience does not apply in the face of perennial, unambiguous teaching.

Really? It's my understanding that before 1869, early abortion before quickening was not considered homicide and not subject to excommunication.

What Church or legal documentation do you have for your understanding?

Anonymous wrote:There are no Catholic arguments in favor of abortion. It has always been considered homicide, even prior to the resolution of the “ensoulment” issue. Primacy of individual conscience does not apply in the face of perennial, unambiguous teaching.

Really? It's my understanding that before 1869, early abortion before quickening was not considered homicide and not subject to excommunication.

There are no Catholic arguments in favor of abortion. It has always been considered homicide, even prior to the resolution of the “ensoulment” issue. Primacy of individual conscience does not apply in the face of perennial, unambiguous teaching.

Catholic here who favors overturning Roe to remand these determinations back to the states. Has nothing to do with my religious views but rather my view of those things that are the domain of the federal government and those that are the domain of state governments.

The proper way to do something like Roe at the national level is a constitutional amendment like people did a hundred years ago for prohibition.

I know there are other Catholics like me: 56% of U.S. Catholics believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases, and 68% believe that Roe v. Wade should not be overturned. Those stats come from the Pew Research Center https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/20/8-key-findings-about-catholics-and-abortion/

I'm interested in learning more about the moral arguments made by both sides because I am getting closer to leaving the Catholic Church over this issue. I have always been able to avoid and ignore the anti-abortion organizing by the Church while I have participated in other Catholic social justice ministries and regular parish life and rituals. But I can't ignore it any longer.

In case others are interested, here are the sources I have found helpful.

Catholic positions against abortion

The Catechism #2270--2275: human life begins at conception and the embryo should be given the rights of a person https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7Z.HTM#-2C6

Fact sheet from the USCCB: "Scientists increasingly understood that the union of sperm and egg at conception produces a new living being that is distinct from both mother and father. Modern genetics demonstrated that this individual is, at the outset, distinctively human, with the inherent and active potential to mature into a human fetus, infant, child and adult ... Given the scientific fact that a human life begins at conception, the only moral norm needed to understand the Church's opposition to abortion is the principle that each and every human life has inherent dignity, and thus must be treated with the respect due to a human person." https://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/abortion/respect-for-unborn-human-life

Catholic positions for abortion

Video: "The Value of Life: Scientific and Moral Reflections on Abortion" -- One compelling argument is made that "the autonomy of the pregnant woman is a frame that circumscribes all other framing of early life by biological landmarks." https://www.catholicsforchoice.org/resource-library/the-value-of-life-scientific-and-moral-reflections-on-abortion/

Article: "The history of Catholic teaching on abortion isn’t as clear cut as you think" -- "Even though Catholicism is a religion with a strict and prominent hierarchy, it has a deep respect for individual reason and choice. When navigating complex moral questions, a person must first look to their own conscience to find the correct answer — not Church leaders. This principle is known as the “primacy of conscience,” and the Catechism goes further to say, “A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience ... For some, the primacy of conscience gives sufficient room within the Catholic Church for individuals to make up their own minds on abortion." https://theoutline.com/post/8536/catholic-history-abortion-brigid

Two books I have ordered but not read yet:
"A Brief, Liberal, Catholic Defense of Abortion" by Daniel Dombrowski
"Our Right to Choose: Toward a New Ethic of Abortion" by Beverly Wildung Harrison

To conclude, the differences seem to be about fetal development, when life begins, and the autonomy and dignity of the person, in this case the pregnant woman. On all three of these issues, I feel myself landing squarely on the pro-choice side. Could someone attempt to talk me out of it? I'm hoping for a respectful conversation here. I don't feel safe discussing this with family and friends. I live in a very Catholic world.