Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus died on Friday. To commemorate the death of his body, people traditionally abstained from flesh. Fish are cold-blooded and traditionally not considered flesh. It also dates back to the Jewish kosher law where fish are not considered meat either.

Some bishops have made dispensations for certain animals. Like in New Orleans, the bishop permits alligator to be eaten on Fridays. There’s a diocese in Michigan (I think) where they are dispensed to eat beaver!

So if the flesh of animals is similar enough to the flesh of human for the symbolism, then why is meat eating so widely accepted as normal?

Some amount of meat for the sustenance of life could be justified, but the daily eating of meat as staple to one's diet on most every day except Fridays during Lent seems a little meaningless.

It’s a religion. Lots of things don’t make sense.

Bingo

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus died on Friday. To commemorate the death of his body, people traditionally abstained from flesh. Fish are cold-blooded and traditionally not considered flesh. It also dates back to the Jewish kosher law where fish are not considered meat either.

Some bishops have made dispensations for certain animals. Like in New Orleans, the bishop permits alligator to be eaten on Fridays. There’s a diocese in Michigan (I think) where they are dispensed to eat beaver!

So if the flesh of animals is similar enough to the flesh of human for the symbolism, then why is meat eating so widely accepted as normal?

Some amount of meat for the sustenance of life could be justified, but the daily eating of meat as staple to one's diet on most every day except Fridays during Lent seems a little meaningless.

It’s a religion. Lots of things don’t make sense.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus died on Friday. To commemorate the death of his body, people traditionally abstained from flesh. Fish are cold-blooded and traditionally not considered flesh. It also dates back to the Jewish kosher law where fish are not considered meat either.

Some bishops have made dispensations for certain animals. Like in New Orleans, the bishop permits alligator to be eaten on Fridays. There’s a diocese in Michigan (I think) where they are dispensed to eat beaver!

Thanks -- this makes sense if the goal is to abstain from flesh. But as you noted, people are allowed to eat various flesh like beaver, frog legs, muskrat (which is a rodent).. and eggs too (I guess that's pre-flesh?). https://www.newsobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article259005888.html

I just remember going out two Fridays ago with friends and since I couldnt' eat meat, I had escargot and a great seafood stew. That hardly seems ascetic compared to the pollo al limone I'd otherwise order.

The ascetic element of Lent extends beyond just the Friday abstinence though. That’s what the penance and amendment of life (of your own choosing) you are supposed to undertake for Lent.

If you think eating a $40 plate of escargot is not enough of a sacrifice, you’re free to make a more modest choice in dinner. The church isn’t mandating that you deny yourself extraordinarily beyond what she upholds as her rule. A spiritual director or speaking to your parish priest might be of help in this.

OP here. I did give up something for all of lent, and it's definitely been a sacrifice.

I guess the meat thing is my issue. To me, fish is a luxury and meat is a staple, so why are we being instructed to abstain from meat but not fish? It seems like it should be the other way around, at least in this country.

Local bishops made exceptions to allow people to eat beaver and alligator, not because they are luxuries but because they are staple foods in those areas. Shouldn't the US bishops advise follows to abstain from fish instead of meat?

No, they shouldn’t. Abstaining from meat is related to the symbolism of the death of Christ on the cross. Nobody’s going to change 2,000 years of tradition on that matter, lol.

But they did.. the local bishops in North America have decreed alligator, beaver, and muskrat is allowed. Those were recent changes to tradition. How are those not flesh or meat? Muskrat is a rodent.

Anonymous wrote:Jesus died on Friday. To commemorate the death of his body, people traditionally abstained from flesh. Fish are cold-blooded and traditionally not considered flesh. It also dates back to the Jewish kosher law where fish are not considered meat either.

Some bishops have made dispensations for certain animals. Like in New Orleans, the bishop permits alligator to be eaten on Fridays. There’s a diocese in Michigan (I think) where they are dispensed to eat beaver!

So if the flesh of animals is similar enough to the flesh of human for the symbolism, then why is meat eating so widely accepted as normal?

Some amount of meat for the sustenance of life could be justified, but the daily eating of meat as staple to one's diet on most every day except Fridays during Lent seems a little meaningless.

It's bizarre to me how some people don't consider fish as "meat." Flesh of an animal = meat, whether surf or turf.

I think it’s about setting this day aside, doing something different that causes you to stop and reflect on why it’s different. So missing a food that many families eat every day serves that purpose. And making it a relatively expensive food means that low income families can participate.

But it’s just one category of food. There are lots of luxury foods that are still allowed. I have eaten cake on Friday during Lent, for example.

You can also decide for yourself that seafood is a luxury to you and that you don’t want to eat it. The rule isn’t “eat fish” it’s “no meat”. We are actually doing vegan Fridays during Lent this year because we have been wanting to try more vegan meals and Friday is a day we have a little more time to cook and try new things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus died on Friday. To commemorate the death of his body, people traditionally abstained from flesh. Fish are cold-blooded and traditionally not considered flesh. It also dates back to the Jewish kosher law where fish are not considered meat either.

Some bishops have made dispensations for certain animals. Like in New Orleans, the bishop permits alligator to be eaten on Fridays. There’s a diocese in Michigan (I think) where they are dispensed to eat beaver!

Thanks -- this makes sense if the goal is to abstain from flesh. But as you noted, people are allowed to eat various flesh like beaver, frog legs, muskrat (which is a rodent).. and eggs too (I guess that's pre-flesh?). https://www.newsobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article259005888.html

I just remember going out two Fridays ago with friends and since I couldnt' eat meat, I had escargot and a great seafood stew. That hardly seems ascetic compared to the pollo al limone I'd otherwise order.

The ascetic element of Lent extends beyond just the Friday abstinence though. That’s what the penance and amendment of life (of your own choosing) you are supposed to undertake for Lent.

If you think eating a $40 plate of escargot is not enough of a sacrifice, you’re free to make a more modest choice in dinner. The church isn’t mandating that you deny yourself extraordinarily beyond what she upholds as her rule. A spiritual director or speaking to your parish priest might be of help in this.

OP here. I did give up something for all of lent, and it's definitely been a sacrifice.

I guess the meat thing is my issue. To me, fish is a luxury and meat is a staple, so why are we being instructed to abstain from meat but not fish? It seems like it should be the other way around, at least in this country.

Local bishops made exceptions to allow people to eat beaver and alligator, not because they are luxuries but because they are staple foods in those areas. Shouldn't the US bishops advise follows to abstain from fish instead of meat?

No, they shouldn’t. Abstaining from meat is related to the symbolism of the death of Christ on the cross. Nobody’s going to change 2,000 years of tradition on that matter, lol.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus died on Friday. To commemorate the death of his body, people traditionally abstained from flesh. Fish are cold-blooded and traditionally not considered flesh. It also dates back to the Jewish kosher law where fish are not considered meat either.

Some bishops have made dispensations for certain animals. Like in New Orleans, the bishop permits alligator to be eaten on Fridays. There’s a diocese in Michigan (I think) where they are dispensed to eat beaver!

Thanks -- this makes sense if the goal is to abstain from flesh. But as you noted, people are allowed to eat various flesh like beaver, frog legs, muskrat (which is a rodent).. and eggs too (I guess that's pre-flesh?). https://www.newsobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article259005888.html

I just remember going out two Fridays ago with friends and since I couldnt' eat meat, I had escargot and a great seafood stew. That hardly seems ascetic compared to the pollo al limone I'd otherwise order.

The ascetic element of Lent extends beyond just the Friday abstinence though. That’s what the penance and amendment of life (of your own choosing) you are supposed to undertake for Lent.

If you think eating a $40 plate of escargot is not enough of a sacrifice, you’re free to make a more modest choice in dinner. The church isn’t mandating that you deny yourself extraordinarily beyond what she upholds as her rule. A spiritual director or speaking to your parish priest might be of help in this.

OP here. I did give up something for all of lent, and it's definitely been a sacrifice.

I guess the meat thing is my issue. To me, fish is a luxury and meat is a staple, so why are we being instructed to abstain from meat but not fish? It seems like it should be the other way around, at least in this country.

Local bishops made exceptions to allow people to eat beaver and alligator, not because they are luxuries but because they are staple foods in those areas. Shouldn't the US bishops advise follows to abstain from fish instead of meat?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus died on Friday. To commemorate the death of his body, people traditionally abstained from flesh. Fish are cold-blooded and traditionally not considered flesh. It also dates back to the Jewish kosher law where fish are not considered meat either.

Some bishops have made dispensations for certain animals. Like in New Orleans, the bishop permits alligator to be eaten on Fridays. There’s a diocese in Michigan (I think) where they are dispensed to eat beaver!

Thanks -- this makes sense if the goal is to abstain from flesh. But as you noted, people are allowed to eat various flesh like beaver, frog legs, muskrat (which is a rodent).. and eggs too (I guess that's pre-flesh?). https://www.newsobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article259005888.html

I just remember going out two Fridays ago with friends and since I couldnt' eat meat, I had escargot and a great seafood stew. That hardly seems ascetic compared to the pollo al limone I'd otherwise order.

The ascetic element of Lent extends beyond just the Friday abstinence though. That’s what the penance and amendment of life (of your own choosing) you are supposed to undertake for Lent.

If you think eating a $40 plate of escargot is not enough of a sacrifice, you’re free to make a more modest choice in dinner. The church isn’t mandating that you deny yourself extraordinarily beyond what she upholds as her rule. A spiritual director or speaking to your parish priest might be of help in this.

Anonymous wrote:Jesus died on Friday. To commemorate the death of his body, people traditionally abstained from flesh. Fish are cold-blooded and traditionally not considered flesh. It also dates back to the Jewish kosher law where fish are not considered meat either.

Some bishops have made dispensations for certain animals. Like in New Orleans, the bishop permits alligator to be eaten on Fridays. There’s a diocese in Michigan (I think) where they are dispensed to eat beaver!

Thanks -- this makes sense if the goal is to abstain from flesh. But as you noted, people are allowed to eat various flesh like beaver, frog legs, muskrat (which is a rodent).. and eggs too (I guess that's pre-flesh?). https://www.newsobserver.com/news/nation-world/national/article259005888.html

I just remember going out two Fridays ago with friends and since I couldnt' eat meat, I had escargot and a great seafood stew. That hardly seems ascetic compared to the pollo al limone I'd otherwise order.

Anonymous wrote:
Carnival/Mardi Gras, the day before Lent starts, everyone would party and eat all the meat before the weather got warm and the meat in storage rotted. During Lent, I guess there wasn’t much meat to be had, so might as well have Meatless Fridays? Have a day that you refrain from hunting and killing the little lambs?

Except that Catholics didn't eat meat on any Friday before refrigerators were a thing. The change is more recent than that. So, that's not the explanation.

Jesus died on Friday. To commemorate the death of his body, people traditionally abstained from flesh. Fish are cold-blooded and traditionally not considered flesh. It also dates back to the Jewish kosher law where fish are not considered meat either.

Some bishops have made dispensations for certain animals. Like in New Orleans, the bishop permits alligator to be eaten on Fridays. There’s a diocese in Michigan (I think) where they are dispensed to eat beaver!

Anonymous wrote:
Carnival/Mardi Gras, the day before Lent starts, everyone would party and eat all the meat before the weather got warm and the meat in storage rotted. During Lent, I guess there wasn’t much meat to be had, so might as well have Meatless Fridays? Have a day that you refrain from hunting and killing the little lambs?

Ok but that's sort of unique to that region of the US. The Catholics in Boston probably didn't have the "We ate all the meat to prevent spoilage from warm weather" reasoning.. yet the "no meat on Fridays" seems to be universal.

Carnival/Mardi Gras, the day before Lent starts, everyone would party and eat all the meat before the weather got warm and the meat in storage rotted. During Lent, I guess there wasn’t much meat to be had, so might as well have Meatless Fridays? Have a day that you refrain from hunting and killing the little lambs?

I've followed it since I was a kid (being raised Catholic) but I've finally tried to dig into the meaning. As I understand it, the idea to refrain from meat (but not fish) is that lent is a time of reflection and asceticism.

That makes sense -- the small sacrifices make you reflect, and I agree with that.

But why abstain from chicken, pork, and beef, but not fish? As I understand it, when these rules were made a long time ago and certainly not here in the US, fish was a daily staple food and meat was a luxury. So it makes sense they'd refrain from meat.

But here in the US, it's the opposite -- meat is a staple food, and fish is a luxury.

Shouldn't we here in the US abstain from fish on Fridays instead?