Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Covert narcissism is not a real psychological term. It is like a psychological internet conspiracy for people who can’t make sense of their relationships. The only people who go down these internet narcissism rabbit holes are usually mentally I’ll themselves. Labeling your spouse a covert narcissist doesn’t serve you. You need to do what everyone else does - get a real therapist to work in your relationship with you and decide next steps. And please please please don’t spend the rest of your life complaining to your children about how their dad is a “covert narcissist.” In case you can’t tell, my mother was just like you!!!!!

You sound very angry. Very, very angry.. has someone called you a covert narcissist? Because it seems like a real nerve was hit. Labeling people “mentally ill” based off your own personal judgments isn’t really something that’s helpful or ethical. Also, terms like “covert narcissist” have helped many women leave incredibly abusive relationships because they were able to identify what was happening to them. If women leaving abusers makes you angry, then i don’t really know what to tell you.

LOL at you. I am not the PP you're responding to but I have to say that you sound ... out there.

Covert narcissism is not a technical term (it's not in the DSM-IV, for instance) but it does describe some real behaviors that are useful to identify whether you are doing them or being impacted by them. While a true narcissist is relatively rare, all people display narcissistic tendencies at times. And if you are in a relationship with someone who is stuck in patterns of narcissistic behavior, this can be extremely difficult even if they don't meet the definition of a narcissist.

One reason I find covert narcissism a useful term is that it can force people to reckon with the impact of their behavior instead of fixating on intentions. The problem with focusing ONLY on intentions is that people tend to be very generous with themselves about their own intentions. Also people tend to act instinctually in their own self interest, which means they can do harmful things without ever thinking "And now I will screw over my partner by ignoring all their needs in favor of my own."

My DH is not a covert narcissist but he used to have a specific behavior that could be categorized this way. Whenever I'd criticize him in any way, he'd immediately make the conversation about how hurtful it was for me to criticize him. No matter what. Even if it was my first criticism in 6 months, even if the thing I was criticizing was a really hurtful behavior on his part. These conversations ALWAYS became about how unkind I was to say something "mean" about him. It became such a permanent feature of our arguments that I started to document it and very carefully laid it out for him during a time when we weren't in an argument. Once I had said it, my DH started to recognize he was doing it, and things started to get better. But if I tried to point it out in the moment ("Why are we once again talking about how it's mean of me to raise any issues with you and never actually talking about any of those issues?") he'd just get mad and defensive. It was incredibly frustrating and made it impossible for me to get emotional needs met for a chunk of our relationship.

It was useful for me to read about covert narcissism online when I was untangling all this for myself. It helped me recognize that this pattern is not uncommon, and also to pinpoint exactly how it was affecting me. And that made it much easier for me to explain to my DH.

I do think people get too hung up on labeling someone a narcissist when we should focus on describing behaviors. But to say that covert narcissism is not real is false. It's an apt way to describe people who use a specific set of techniques and manipulations to accomplish narcissistic goals. Even if they say that's not what the intended.

Anonymous wrote:Covert narcissism is not a real psychological term. It is like a psychological internet conspiracy for people who can’t make sense of their relationships. The only people who go down these internet narcissism rabbit holes are usually mentally I’ll themselves. Labeling your spouse a covert narcissist doesn’t serve you. You need to do what everyone else does - get a real therapist to work in your relationship with you and decide next steps. And please please please don’t spend the rest of your life complaining to your children about how their dad is a “covert narcissist.” In case you can’t tell, my mother was just like you!!!!!

You sound very angry. Very, very angry.. has someone called you a covert narcissist? Because it seems like a real nerve was hit. Labeling people “mentally ill” based off your own personal judgments isn’t really something that’s helpful or ethical. Also, terms like “covert narcissist” have helped many women leave incredibly abusive relationships because they were able to identify what was happening to them. If women leaving abusers makes you angry, then i don’t really know what to tell you.

Its difficult for children of dysfunctional families to have functional relationships but not impossible if they are aware and determined.

Anonymous wrote:Can anyone share experiences coparenting with wha they believe to be a covert narcissistic? I'm worried about my children and whether or not this is a" stay and work on the relationship" or "go" moment. Blows up in front of children, no empathy, angry, and the list goes on. Has anyone figured out how to get them into therapy?

You only met him after having children or knew him before? Is this an arranged or shotgun marriage? Anyhow, you made a bad decision worse by having mot one but more children with a person you cant co-parent with.

There are few options, none is great or guaranteed.

1. You ask children's pediatrician or psychologist to recommend therapy to the father.

2. You ask for separation until he is willing to change or see a therapist for his lack of behavioral controls.

3. You divorce and ask for custody if he is unwilling to resolve it.

4. You yourself learn ways to manage his behavior.

I'm sorry for you and the kids. Its mental abuse. You and the kids deserve better not worse side of him. You are an adult who didn't take enough time to see the signs or just ignored the signs before getting married and bringing children to a bad environment but children are absolutely innocent with no control over anything.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very rare for narcs to go to therapy. You can certainly bring it up and if he is willing to go-fantastic. They often will make fun of the whole concept and complain you are crazy and all therapists are crazy.

There is a lot of narcissism in my family and I use gray rock to interact. The worst thing you can do is take any bait, defend or explain. If you do plan to divorce, I would make sure you are in therapy so you have regular support and strategies to deal with co-parenting.

As for 7:32's post, I do agree you should not tell your kids dad is a "covert narcissist" or drag them into your issues in any way. However, 7:32 is wrong. Narcissism is real and it causes a lot of damage. Writing "The only people go down these internet narcissism rabbit holes are usually mentally ill themselves" is classic narc talk. It's a way to gaslight you. Ignore it.

No. True narcissism is rare. A bunch of aggrieved people on the internet have made up terms like “covert narcissist” to try to make sense of their bad relationships. A psychologist would never diagnose someone as a “covert narcissist.”

Here's an article about covert narcissists that was reviewed by a doctor (PhD, PsyD): https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covert-narcissist. Are you a PhD, PsyD?

It is estimated that 10-13 percent of the population has some kind of personality disorder; so, not so rare. The reason it's become an internet phenomenon is because these personality disordered people cause so much misery in relationships, their victims look everywhere for answers, including the internet. It might seem disproportionate, but it's really not when you consider that PDs are the source of so many relationship problems.

I'm sure there are some people out there who aren't correct in their armchair diagnoses of family members. However, for MANY people, the shock of recognition when they read about narcissism is a starting point on the way to better mental health. So I think, the more it's talked about, the better.

NPD is a real disorder, recognized by medical professionals. People like you invented all the other kinds of "narcissists" to "explain away" friends/relatives/partners who won't do exactly what the offended person wants them to do. Look at the way OP says "is there a way to get THEM into therapy?" Like her husband is some kind of different species instead of a person she is married to who might be legitimately angry at her. If anything, the only thing I can see wrong with her husband from the post is that he needs anger management.

Also, I can tell you just have relationship problems in general because you said "a lot of people" in your family have narcissism. Um, no they don't. It sounds like you are just hard to get along with and you've explained away your myriad relationship problems by calling everyone else a narcissist.

Actually when there's an NPD in a family there's often more than one ... children of NPDs are at risk of being NPDs. Children of NPDs may also be at risk of marrying NPDs because it's the dynamic that they know. I'm a DP from the one who said there is "a lot of" narcissists in her family, but I find it believable.

What I don't find believable are the people who seem to have an outsized interest in "debunking" a disorder that is in the books.

I believe that "lots of" people struggle with others with PDs--maybe 1 out of 10 people has a PD, and that 1 person interacts with and has relationships with many more people. So "lots of" people are dealing with a PD person, and maybe a smaller minority mistakenly think so.

Of course then there's the propensity of a narcissist to project his own issues onto his family member. "You're a narcissist!" "No, you're the narcissist." So sure, it's can be confusing, but I don't see any problem with people trying to figure out their issues and get feedback from others on message boards.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very rare for narcs to go to therapy. You can certainly bring it up and if he is willing to go-fantastic. They often will make fun of the whole concept and complain you are crazy and all therapists are crazy.

There is a lot of narcissism in my family and I use gray rock to interact. The worst thing you can do is take any bait, defend or explain. If you do plan to divorce, I would make sure you are in therapy so you have regular support and strategies to deal with co-parenting.

As for 7:32's post, I do agree you should not tell your kids dad is a "covert narcissist" or drag them into your issues in any way. However, 7:32 is wrong. Narcissism is real and it causes a lot of damage. Writing "The only people go down these internet narcissism rabbit holes are usually mentally ill themselves" is classic narc talk. It's a way to gaslight you. Ignore it.

No. True narcissism is rare. A bunch of aggrieved people on the internet have made up terms like “covert narcissist” to try to make sense of their bad relationships. A psychologist would never diagnose someone as a “covert narcissist.”

Here's an article about covert narcissists that was reviewed by a doctor (PhD, PsyD): https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covert-narcissist. Are you a PhD, PsyD?

It is estimated that 10-13 percent of the population has some kind of personality disorder; so, not so rare. The reason it's become an internet phenomenon is because these personality disordered people cause so much misery in relationships, their victims look everywhere for answers, including the internet. It might seem disproportionate, but it's really not when you consider that PDs are the source of so many relationship problems.

I'm sure there are some people out there who aren't correct in their armchair diagnoses of family members. However, for MANY people, the shock of recognition when they read about narcissism is a starting point on the way to better mental health. So I think, the more it's talked about, the better.

NPD is a real disorder, recognized by medical professionals. People like you invented all the other kinds of "narcissists" to "explain away" friends/relatives/partners who won't do exactly what the offended person wants them to do. Look at the way OP says "is there a way to get THEM into therapy?" Like her husband is some kind of different species instead of a person she is married to who might be legitimately angry at her. If anything, the only thing I can see wrong with her husband from the post is that he needs anger management.

Also, I can tell you just have relationship problems in general because you said "a lot of people" in your family have narcissism. Um, no they don't. It sounds like you are just hard to get along with and you've explained away your myriad relationship problems by calling everyone else a narcissist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very rare for narcs to go to therapy. You can certainly bring it up and if he is willing to go-fantastic. They often will make fun of the whole concept and complain you are crazy and all therapists are crazy.

There is a lot of narcissism in my family and I use gray rock to interact. The worst thing you can do is take any bait, defend or explain. If you do plan to divorce, I would make sure you are in therapy so you have regular support and strategies to deal with co-parenting.

As for 7:32's post, I do agree you should not tell your kids dad is a "covert narcissist" or drag them into your issues in any way. However, 7:32 is wrong. Narcissism is real and it causes a lot of damage. Writing "The only people go down these internet narcissism rabbit holes are usually mentally ill themselves" is classic narc talk. It's a way to gaslight you. Ignore it.

No. True narcissism is rare. A bunch of aggrieved people on the internet have made up terms like “covert narcissist” to try to make sense of their bad relationships. A psychologist would never diagnose someone as a “covert narcissist.”

Here's an article about covert narcissists that was reviewed by a doctor (PhD, PsyD): https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covert-narcissist. Are you a PhD, PsyD?

It is estimated that 10-13 percent of the population has some kind of personality disorder; so, not so rare. The reason it's become an internet phenomenon is because these personality disordered people cause so much misery in relationships, their victims look everywhere for answers, including the internet. It might seem disproportionate, but it's really not when you consider that PDs are the source of so many relationship problems.

I'm sure there are some people out there who aren't correct in their armchair diagnoses of family members. However, for MANY people, the shock of recognition when they read about narcissism is a starting point on the way to better mental health. So I think, the more it's talked about, the better.

DP. I am a PhD so I call hack on the article and the so-called doctor.

And, yes, 10% is rare. 1 out of 10. Are you kidding me? That is nowhere near a majority. A small minority of our population is speculated (there is no way to reliably measure it) to have a personality disorder. On the continuum, that small population consists of people who have a significant degree of disorder to something that is almost negligible. Sheesh. People like you are feeding wood to the internet fire trap. No wonder there is so much misinformation and so many misinformed people in our world.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very rare for narcs to go to therapy. You can certainly bring it up and if he is willing to go-fantastic. They often will make fun of the whole concept and complain you are crazy and all therapists are crazy.

There is a lot of narcissism in my family and I use gray rock to interact. The worst thing you can do is take any bait, defend or explain. If you do plan to divorce, I would make sure you are in therapy so you have regular support and strategies to deal with co-parenting.

As for 7:32's post, I do agree you should not tell your kids dad is a "covert narcissist" or drag them into your issues in any way. However, 7:32 is wrong. Narcissism is real and it causes a lot of damage. Writing "The only people go down these internet narcissism rabbit holes are usually mentally ill themselves" is classic narc talk. It's a way to gaslight you. Ignore it.

No. True narcissism is rare. A bunch of aggrieved people on the internet have made up terms like “covert narcissist” to try to make sense of their bad relationships. A psychologist would never diagnose someone as a “covert narcissist.”

Here's an article about covert narcissists that was reviewed by a doctor (PhD, PsyD): https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covert-narcissist. Are you a PhD, PsyD?

It is estimated that 10-13 percent of the population has some kind of personality disorder; so, not so rare. The reason it's become an internet phenomenon is because these personality disordered people cause so much misery in relationships, their victims look everywhere for answers, including the internet. It might seem disproportionate, but it's really not when you consider that PDs are the source of so many relationship problems.

I'm sure there are some people out there who aren't correct in their armchair diagnoses of family members. However, for MANY people, the shock of recognition when they read about narcissism is a starting point on the way to better mental health. So I think, the more it's talked about, the better.

It could be just anger issue? No? What other Narcissistic traits does you partner have? You said the list goes on. I’m a child of a Narcissist mom.

Anonymous wrote:It's very rare for narcs to go to therapy. You can certainly bring it up and if he is willing to go-fantastic. They often will make fun of the whole concept and complain you are crazy and all therapists are crazy.

There is a lot of narcissism in my family and I use gray rock to interact. The worst thing you can do is take any bait, defend or explain. If you do plan to divorce, I would make sure you are in therapy so you have regular support and strategies to deal with co-parenting.

As for 7:32's post, I do agree you should not tell your kids dad is a "covert narcissist" or drag them into your issues in any way. However, 7:32 is wrong. Narcissism is real and it causes a lot of damage. Writing "The only people go down these internet narcissism rabbit holes are usually mentally ill themselves" is classic narc talk. It's a way to gaslight you. Ignore it.

No. True narcissism is rare. A bunch of aggrieved people on the internet have made up terms like “covert narcissist” to try to make sense of their bad relationships. A psychologist would never diagnose someone as a “covert narcissist.”

It's very rare for narcs to go to therapy. You can certainly bring it up and if he is willing to go-fantastic. They often will make fun of the whole concept and complain you are crazy and all therapists are crazy.

There is a lot of narcissism in my family and I use gray rock to interact. The worst thing you can do is take any bait, defend or explain. If you do plan to divorce, I would make sure you are in therapy so you have regular support and strategies to deal with co-parenting.

As for 7:32's post, I do agree you should not tell your kids dad is a "covert narcissist" or drag them into your issues in any way. However, 7:32 is wrong. Narcissism is real and it causes a lot of damage. Writing "The only people go down these internet narcissism rabbit holes are usually mentally ill themselves" is classic narc talk. It's a way to gaslight you. Ignore it.

Covert narcissism is not a real psychological term. It is like a psychological internet conspiracy for people who can’t make sense of their relationships. The only people who go down these internet narcissism rabbit holes are usually mentally I’ll themselves. Labeling your spouse a covert narcissist doesn’t serve you. You need to do what everyone else does - get a real therapist to work in your relationship with you and decide next steps. And please please please don’t spend the rest of your life complaining to your children about how their dad is a “covert narcissist.” In case you can’t tell, my mother was just like you!!!!!

Anonymous wrote:Can anyone share experiences coparenting with wha they believe to be a covert narcissistic? I'm worried about my children and whether or not this is a" stay and work on the relationship" or "go" moment. Blows up in front of children, no empathy, angry, and the list goes on. Has anyone figured out how to get them into therapy?

If they won’t admit that there is a problem or they go to therapy but then nothing changes, there’s nothing you can do but leave. Your kids will end up hating them and won’t want them in their lives when they grow up. That’s me now and I’m in the process of leaving him. Coverts don’t leave because they like to play the victim. I was lucky that mine travelled internationally most of the time during their childhood. They only get worse. So sorry.

Can anyone share experiences coparenting with wha they believe to be a covert narcissistic? I'm worried about my children and whether or not this is a" stay and work on the relationship" or "go" moment. Blows up in front of children, no empathy, angry, and the list goes on. Has anyone figured out how to get them into therapy?