Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The above suggestions are kind of funny to me.

My mother took my goth phase in style - I could wear black lipstick (actually for me it was extreme black eye makeup) when I was not with her or the grandparents. So, fine for school. Same for the "weird" clothes - no fishnets at Sunday dinner at Grammys.

I grew out of it in about 4 years. She DID like the fact that all the thrifting was very cheap!

I know now that I was depressed, but I think that the mild push back from her was actually better than just accepting my rebellion - kept it in perspective. I met great friends during that time period.

An added bonus from a parent's view, is that most of them were straight edge. The parties I went to as a more "normal" teen with the jocks and the popular kids were filled with booze and drugs.

+100 hahaha I hung out with the straight edge kids too and ironically we were the good ones

My friends and I were riot grrrls and didn't give into sex pressure to be sexually active because we knew we controlled our bodies and sought out partners who respected us

Straight edge - for those unfamiliar - means absolutely no drugs or alcohol polluting your body. Not a terrible outlook for a teen! Have only heard the term straightedge among punk friends.

BTW - skinhead does NOT universally mean racist; i knew numerous Black and brown skin skinheads, and it’s roots lie in early Ska music (ie Gwen Stefanni) culture.

My daughter is sort of goth-lite, I would say, and is definitely drawn to dark, macabre things in general, but is otherwise quite cheerful and mentally well-adjusted. For many kids, if not most, it’s really just an aesthetic thing, and/or a completely age-appropriate rebellion against cultural norms, and not a reflection of a dark, twisted soul. These kids tend to be much kinder and gentler than the preppy, popular kids, on the whole.

Anonymous wrote:I’m all for self expression, but I’d like to understand the motivation behind the goth/punk aesthetic as my teenager made an abrupt change in her style during Covid while experiencing severe depression and suicidal ideation. Prior to this change in mental health and styling she was a low maintenance, casual dresser who took pride in her hair and makeup. She now seems to be intentionally trying to look intimidating and “extreme” while trying to act like she doesn’t GAF (but she does ).

Any BTDT experience and guidance would be appreciated. I want to be supportive, but I also want her mentally healthy and don’t want to keep her in an unhealthy mental place by encouraging her fashion choices that seem to be reflecting her inner turmoil.

Is your DD very active on social media, such as TikTok or Instagram?

Anonymous wrote:The above suggestions are kind of funny to me.

My mother took my goth phase in style - I could wear black lipstick (actually for me it was extreme black eye makeup) when I was not with her or the grandparents. So, fine for school. Same for the "weird" clothes - no fishnets at Sunday dinner at Grammys.

I grew out of it in about 4 years. She DID like the fact that all the thrifting was very cheap!

I know now that I was depressed, but I think that the mild push back from her was actually better than just accepting my rebellion - kept it in perspective. I met great friends during that time period.

An added bonus from a parent's view, is that most of them were straight edge. The parties I went to as a more "normal" teen with the jocks and the popular kids were filled with booze and drugs.

+100 hahaha I hung out with the straight edge kids too and ironically we were the good ones

My friends and I were riot grrrls and didn't give into sex pressure to be sexually active because we knew we controlled our bodies and sought out partners who respected us

The above suggestions are kind of funny to me.

My mother took my goth phase in style - I could wear black lipstick (actually for me it was extreme black eye makeup) when I was not with her or the grandparents. So, fine for school. Same for the "weird" clothes - no fishnets at Sunday dinner at Grammys.

I grew out of it in about 4 years. She DID like the fact that all the thrifting was very cheap!

I know now that I was depressed, but I think that the mild push back from her was actually better than just accepting my rebellion - kept it in perspective. I met great friends during that time period.

An added bonus from a parent's view, is that most of them were straight edge. The parties I went to as a more "normal" teen with the jocks and the popular kids were filled with booze and drugs.

Talk to her about it in a non-judgmental way. Why does she like some of these things? If she thinks they represent something, what does she think they represent? Help her do some research into goth and punk culture - like PP suggested, there is a rich history for both of those (and they are two different things, so don't lump them together), and ask her if she's interested in the music, as well as the style of dress. Help her do some research into how goth and/or punk fashion has evolved and stayed the same over the years.

Anonymous wrote:I definitely went goth when I was going through severe depression. I too am all for self expression but it’s a red flag. I’ll post more about it when I get to a computer.

Well, crap, I was hoping to find my favorite parenting book that I think has a bit about this issue, but I can't find it now (I think DD may have it somewhere in her room).

So as I'm sure you know, the issue is not how she's dressing. Her mental health is the issue, and the dress may or may not be a symptom of worsening mental health. I think goth and punk dress is a common symptom of mental health issues because the music and art that goes along with the aesthetic have heavy themes of depression, alienation, anxiety, etc. Goth and punk aesthetics can be great and totally artistic, but when a teenager does it it's usually about more than just the aesthetic. (Actually sometimes for adults too; Alexander McQueen was pretty messed up).

But I think you can still encourage her self-expression without encouraging her to be in a mentally unhealthy place. In fact, maybe your taking some interest in her new aesthetic (with the focus on aesthetic and not it being a cry for help) might actually help. It's important for a child to feel a sense of control and a sense of connection with their parent (if at all possible), and fashion could be a way to do that.

But you don't have to do that. It's also reasonable to say "hey black lipstick at home is fine but for me it's not appropriate for school, so you can't leave for school with it on and I'm not going to buy it for you." (In fact the book I like specifically mentions black lipstick). I would just try to be a good parent generally to her in other ways, like being responsive to bids for attention and emotional support.

This is the book by the way:

https://www.amazon.com/Untangled-Guiding-Teenage-Transitions-Adulthood/dp/0553393073

Anonymous wrote:Wow all the anti-goths/punks. I was bullied by “normal” kids when I was younger so people who expressed themselves as other with fashion/hair/makeup seemed safe to me. If her old friend group was unhelpful or flat out mean when she started struggling with mental health issues, this may be a reaction to those broken friendships. Does she have friends (new or old)? Are they supportive/helping improve her mental health? If so, I wouldn’t police this fashion trend any more than any other adolescent self-expression. Definitely make sure she’s continuing with therapy though.

+1

I went through it. At the time, I felt so powerless against expectations of how girls were supposed to dress and act -- be pretty, be quiet. Punk is really about helping yourself and your community. It felt really empowering to flip beauty standards on its head, use my voice (singer in a punk band), and not buy into consumerism by buying vintage, making my own clothes. I feel like punk saved my life, and the DIY ethos really helped me with a growth mindset before that was a thing. I encourage you to learn more about punk and Goth cultures, it's history and how does evolved over time, and talk to your DD about how she interprets it.

BTW I'm a lawyer now.

It's a big F.U. to the "establishment", whatever establishment that is, and in this case, it's the school culture, the bullies, the popular kids...

Not necessarily suicidal, but something is up.

Wow all the anti-goths/punks. I was bullied by “normal” kids when I was younger so people who expressed themselves as other with fashion/hair/makeup seemed safe to me. If her old friend group was unhelpful or flat out mean when she started struggling with mental health issues, this may be a reaction to those broken friendships. Does she have friends (new or old)? Are they supportive/helping improve her mental health? If so, I wouldn’t police this fashion trend any more than any other adolescent self-expression. Definitely make sure she’s continuing with therapy though.

Yes. It was, looking back, an exciting fad that I fell into right around a somewhat difficult transitional period. And who knows what friend groups were missed out on as a result. She can appreciate the music and friendships without dressing in a way that turns off many peers. It's self limiting. See if there's another big change that she might like better and find more fulfilling. And therapy.

I definitely went goth when I was going through severe depression. I too am all for self expression but it’s a red flag. I’ll post more about it when I get to a computer.

Honestly that sounds like a healthier way for her to distinguish herself than most kids are doing these days. It is the purpose of adolescence to try on different identities and ways of presenting yourself to the world. A punk/goth look is something she will grow out of in time. Wasn’t my scene when I was younger but I had a lot of friends who were into it. They’re all content middle-aged people now.

Be patient and observe. It will be okay.

I’m all for self expression, but I’d like to understand the motivation behind the goth/punk aesthetic as my teenager made an abrupt change in her style during Covid while experiencing severe depression and suicidal ideation. Prior to this change in mental health and styling she was a low maintenance, casual dresser who took pride in her hair and makeup. She now seems to be intentionally trying to look intimidating and “extreme” while trying to act like she doesn’t GAF (but she does ).

Any BTDT experience and guidance would be appreciated. I want to be supportive, but I also want her mentally healthy and don’t want to keep her in an unhealthy mental place by encouraging her fashion choices that seem to be reflecting her inner turmoil.