Reply to Public education: competing interests, philosophical divide

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]NP.  When you step back, it seems really strange that as a society, we're desperate to "integrate the schools," and yet the very reason those schools aren't naturally integrated is that our society chooses to self-segregate (largely by race) into neighborhoods.  Seems like we're fighting against our own desires.

Personally, I have a cynical attitude on all this.  Here's my view of how we got where we are ....

1. All families want the very best schools for their own children.

2. Almost all families will screw over others to get the best outcome for their children.  That's white, black, high-SES, low-SES, everyone.  Some may talk a good game to try to hide their self-interest, but it almost always boils down to self-interest.

3. High-SES families are more likely white.  Low-SES families are more likely black.  Yes, there are exceptions, and skin color is not destiny.  Yes, it's unfair and probably a result of historic racism.  But in the end, the correlation is clear.

4. White, high-SES children do much better in school than black, low-SES children.  They not only score higher on the various test, but they also make for a less chaotic learning environment.  Again, there are exceptions, and skin color and income are not destiny.  But on average, it's the correlation is difficult to escape.

5. White parents want their children to attend the best possible schools.  (See Point #1)  Since white parents have more money on average, they accomplish this by moving to neighborhoods that are mostly white and high-SES.  They're not opposed to all black kids, or all low-income kids, but they're simply and logically playing the averages that high-SES white schools will be better environments for kids to learn.  These white parents dislike school choice models, because they earned, saved, and spent their money to get the best schools, and they don't want others to get the same for free.  They also don't want too many low-income black students around, because they're more likely on average to disrupt the learning environment.

6. Black parents want their children to attend the best possible schools.  (See Point #1)  High-SES black parents can accomplish this by simply moving to high-SES white neighborhoods.  Low-SES black parents can't afford to move to high-income neighborhoods, so they favor school choice and other mechanisms that allow them to get into high-SES white schools.  They're trying to get the best possible learning environment for their kids, and they frankly don't care if they're screwing some white families out of spots.

7. So when white posters here argue for "neighborhood schools," what they're really saying is that they don't want too many low-income black kids disrupting the learning environment.  They don't really care about the neighborhood; they just want to help their own kids.  When black posters here argue for "school choice" and "integration," what they're really saying is that they just want to get a spot for their own kids in the white schools, so they themselves can escape the crappy low-income black schools.  They don't really care about integration in general; they just want to help themselves.

8. I don't think that makes either set of parents bad or racist or evil - parents are just all selfish pricks when it comes to seeking the best for their own kids.  Simple evolution.

Cynical, I know.  Maybe I've had one too many drinks, so I'm not saying it in a sweet way.  But I think that's how most people approach this.[/quote]

Your conclusion in #7 applies to some people - more likely around JKLM type schools.  But what about the EOTP people arguing for the same?  In my case, the "best possible school" I want for my kids is not the JKLM type.  The neighborhood school that I support is very mixed - both by SES and race.[/quote]

Very good writeup and summary

I'll chime in on 7 too.  Those of us who are high SES paid a really high real estate premium to live in a nehighborhood with good schools.  Why should someone who paid much less for their real estate (Lower SES problably black person) get to reap the benefits of a higher school too.  Its the free rider effect.  I think everyone would love to buy a cheaper house in a crappy school district and then get to go to a great school district.  [/quote]

These are great discussion points. I disagree with part of #5 "These white parents dislike school choice models, because they earned, saved, and spent their money to get the best schools, and they don't want others to get the same for free." These parents don't necessarily dislike school choice models because they don't want others to get the same for free- they dislike them because they come with inherent risks (not a sure thing your kid will go to the school you want) and those risks are all on the downside for high SES families. If the previous all-high SES neighborhood school now becomes part of a lottery, they have everything to lose and nothing to gain. Conversely, the lower SES family who lives in a neighborhood with a crappy school has everything to gain and nothing to lose with a lottery. I don't think it has anything to do with not wanting others to have what you have.

The truth is that the vast majority of parents want their kid to attend the very best academic school possible and people will move, advocate, argue, vote etc. according to what will give them that outcome.

Also, I think it's important to understand that DC is very different from most places- White = high SES, Black = low SES here in a way that is not true across the country. [/quote]

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