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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]This morning I was enjoying a morning sleep in when my kids were at my ex's house, but my 10th grader woke up me at 6:30 to ask when I was taking her to the dermatologist.

So I said, well I assumed your dad was taking you, and she sprang it on him, and he was flustered, but he did it.

You just have to drop the rope.

I could say, "Hey, just for the record, please ask me ahead of time if you need my help with doctor's appointments on your days!" and he would say, "Of course, excuse excuse excuse, blah blah blah," and then he would do the same exact thing. The only way to stop doing it for him is to stop doing it for him. I knew he would probably not notice/assume/forget. But I knew that carrying the mental load and reminding him and acting like it was normal of me to worry about this for him at all would just perpetuate the cycle. Break the cycle. He'll figure it out.[/quote]

Just want to note you can also set boundaries like that while married. [/quote]

It's much more difficult and exhausting. My xH refused to do chores, and even if I "set boundaries" by refusing to do his half, he just....wouldn't do them. The dishes would pile up on the kitchen counters for days/weeks. If PP was married, the DD would be constantly asking her rather than dad, or dad would sneak out of the house to go to work, etc.

There's been data showing that men, not just married men but even men in workplaces, just don't do things when a woman is present because they assume the woman will handle it. Getting physically away from a man by itself often makes them step up.

Plus, you don't have to deal with a man child constantly nagging you for sex as well. [/quote]

It depends on the people involved and the quality of the relationship. Someone who absolutely refuses to do any chores at all is just dead weight. But often it's not that dire. Many men who try to turn their wives into their mothers *will* contribute, it's just that they want to be asked to do things and won't take initiative. Or they try to get out of doing especially unpleasant tasks even when they are necessary (changing diapers, toilet training, etc.). Some men are extremely sensitive to ANY criticism, so they'll do stuff but then the second their spouse says anything that could even be perceived as negative, they quit (meanwhile my DH will tell me flat out that I load the dishwasher "wrong" and I will smile and say if he wants it done a specific way, he can do it himself). Yes this is "man baby" behavior but it can sometimes be addressed by just being direct, making it clear what your expectations and limits are, etc.

I also would not tolerate someone nagging me for sex.

A conversation I had to have with my DH quite a bit, especially after we had a kid, is that I didn't want to engage in some performance of 1950s gender roles. Which means that not only do I want to cook and clean while he sits around reading the newspaper, but I also don't tolerate him painting me as a nagging wife for expecting him to clean up after himself, or behaving like he is congenitally incapable of scrubbing a toilet or helping our DD with her hair.

For me it was worth the effort. A lot of this was him reverting to patterns his parents had engaged in or that had been kind of drilled into him by society by osmosis. Forcing a conversation, being really clear about the kind of marriage I wanted, etc., helped a lot.

If it had not, I would have divorced him. But sadly a lot of men really do require "training" because social forces and family cultures have often taught them how to be lazy man babies and no one has ever told them that won't fly.[/quote]
You seem to be really struggling with the basic fact that[b] lazy men aren't just hapless and untrained. They DON'T want to do their fair share and they WON'T.[/b] What do you do then with all your BS about "training"?[/quote]

Serious question but do you have a job and do you travel?

You have to train men by manipulating them. I’ve gotten far in life both personally and professionally and it’s because I know how to get what I want.

Multiple women I know who complain about their worthless husbands are always home. Men will have you doing everything if you don’t force their hand. You have to have hobbies and/or a job, and leave the house without instructions. [/quote]

Look if you have a rulebook, enlighten us. Millions of women will thank you. But if being employed and leaving the house were effective at getting the weaponized-incompetence types to step up, divorce lawyers would go out of business.

Otherwise accept that your experience is yours and no one is denying it, but others aren't "doing it wrong". That's blaming women for men's failures and that's as anti-woman as it gets.[/quote]

Women need to be accountable for their role in poor spouse selection. Yes, occasionally men (and women) change  significantly with marriage, kids, and time. But more often they married a man with red flags, and/or zero indication the he would take care of things around the home.

This isn't blaming women for men's failures, it blaming women for their own failures to prioritize correctly and be realistic and prepared about the person they marry. Yes, sometimes men do change but 9 times of out 10 women marry these chore-avoiding husbands with their eyes wide open. How marry women prioritize chores and conscientious behaviors when  dating? Very few from what I have seen.    [/quote]

9 times out of 10? That's very precise. I look forward to your longitudinal study on chore-doing. You must have been observing this and taking notes on a large population over the course of many decades. I'm not sure how you got that many couples to let you in their houses, and the time-use data must have been a hassle to collect, but I'm sure it was worth it. [/quote]

There is plenty of available data that tell us what women seeking men prioritize in a partner. Dating sites. While there is plenty of data on women seeking men with jobs, no smoking, and pet preferences, the mention of chores is so small it is essentially non-existent.

How many women moaning here dated a man with a perfectly maintained clean home or apartment, only to find out that is a total fake to trick her into a relationship and marriage? Very few. When you marry someone and  expect them to change, you will always  be disappointed.  [/quote]
If your techniques with your lazy husband were working, you wouldn't be spending Saturday night be a miserable b!tch on a relationship forum. You're angry and taking it out on other women with knowingly provocative judgments. It isn't our fault that men are lazy losers, but it is your fault that you've let a man make you this bitter.[/quote]

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