Reply to Why do we tolerate trash talking and elitism as "boys will be boys" behavior?

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I have personally seen this in girls as well as boys. I can't tell if it's just the culture at our elementary school or what, but the kids are super mean to each other (we are leaving after this year, for several reasons, but honestly this aspect of the culture is part of it).

I have seen boys and girls "roast" other kids for offenses like needing after school tutoring, being slower than other kids in gym, not being familiar with some tv show/movie/video game, having parents who aren't as well off. My kids have also told me about teasing that happens because a child expresses any ambition (i.e. making fun of a kid who says they want to be a doctor when they grow up) or for being unfamiliar with terms related to drugs or sex (yes, I know, again -- we are leaving).

Some of the kids also attempt to roast adults.

It seems to start around 2nd grade at the school (our oldest is in 2nd) though I saw some of it in 1st. However, in 1st, teachers would say something about it and at least some of the other parents would also speak up. Now no one seems to care. Some adults seem to think it's a positive thing, a way for kids to show confidence and be "resilient."

I'm totally baffled. At first I was shocked but now I'm just confused. Why would you raise kids like this? Separately, teachers and some parents complain about "behavioral issues" at school, by which they mean kids who push or shove or make scenes in class. To me it's all obviously connected. These kids are not being taught to be respectful of other people, or that their actions can negatively effect others and they have a responsibility to work on themselves and be better.[/quote]

Do I tease my kids? Yes. Do my friends make fun of me? Yes. Do my kids make fun of their friends and vice versa? Yes.

The problem is not teasing and roasting. The problem is adults not teaching kids to do it well, so kids are on their own to figure it out on the playground away from adults.

It’s really hard for kids to learn how to do. Sometimes they don’t mean to hurt a feeling but they do. Sometimes they feel hurt but they smile. There are false signals thrown in. It’s all hard to figure out.

Don’t look at 60 roasting kids and assume they and their parents are all mean people who are ok with being mean. Those parents may be working on a skill set that frankly, may benefit your child to learn too.[/quote]

When kids (or adults) are making fun of other kids for being "less than" in some way (struggling academically, being less athletic, having parents with less money, having fewer material things or as many experiences), they are being mean.

There is not some special skill for making fun of people for being or having less than you. This is mean, bullying behavior, no matter the age if the person doing it or how clever they are in doing it.

The proper response to a kid doing this is "don't, that is mean."

It's not "oh they just haven't figured out how to do this the way adults do it, where they couch it as a joke so they can pretend they don't mean it, or couch it as concern so it seems like they are trying to help, or they only discuss it behind your back so they can pretend never to have said it at all."[/quote]

Did you watch the Friends clip? Do you ever watch Modern Family? People make fun of each other for something they might be sensitive about all the time.

Some adults hear kids do this and call it all mean. All that does is make the kids do it in secret. Sort of the same way girls group up and whisper in secret, a bunch of things that are snarky but a bunch that are not.

Kids who have adults figuring out whether their trash talk was out of jealousy or superiority or fun have a much better chance of teaching their kids to be good people (and good roasters).[/quote]

You think people should behave like characters on sitcoms? You think that's the standard for human interaction?

Those aren't real people. Characters on sitcoms make fun of each other constantly because the people who write sitcoms are under pressure to ensure there are at least 3 jokes on every page of script. Literally, they count them, and they get notes from networks about upping just keep rates.

Jokes at another person's expense are mean, but easy. So if you need to produce humor, it's an easy target. Easier than social commentary. And much easier for performers than broad comedy or physical humor. It's also cheap.

So yes, people in sitcoms relentlessly "roast" each other and never get too mad about it (unless their anger might be funny). Because they aren't real people and because their whole job is to produce a laugh.

IRL, people have feelings, and that's mean.[/quote]

Yes in my real life my friends, family and I are accepting of our flaws and make fun of ourselves and each other. It is not mean when it makes us feel good, understood and accepted.

It is mean when it hurts someone’s feelings. This is also how inner circles develop. You can’t be friends with someone who calls this blanket mean, especially when both recipient and deliverer partake joyfully.

Kids in 2nd grade don’t have inner circles. They don’t know what will make one kid feel great will make another cry sometimes until it happens. When they make mistakes, they should absolutely apologize. They sometimes don’t know how sensitive they are until they themselves have hurt feelings and cry.[/quote]

You are assuming what you do is universal and accepted, and it's not.

Also, even in functional in-groups where teasing us ok, the precursor is love and full acceptance of one another. And enough knowledge to know what is off limits and not, plus how to repair when a line is crossed. It takes deep love and trust.

How do you build that live and trust? Kindness and empathy. So if you want your kids to come say understand how to tease a very close friend it family member correctly, you encourage kindness and empathy and discourage meanness. Their relationships will naturally become more sophisticated later, but the foundation isn't "roasting ." You start with kindness.[/quote]

No, I’m not assuming what I do, how I feel, or how my relationships develop are universal. You are.

You’re assuming you know how 8yos feel enough to not tolerate roasting point blank. I’m saying that there are many times when roasting is wrong and inappropriate, and that kids make mistakes. And that the mistakes are developmental.

But you don’t have to take my word for it. There are child development experts and therapists who can help explain.[/quote]

Your argument is that teasing and "roasting" (which is just a euphemism for making fun of someone) is normal and valuable in relationships. That's a value judgment you think is universally correct but what many people on this thread are saying is that they don't like it, not even in adults, not in close relationships.

And then you are passive aggressive about it, claiming people who do this "know how to laugh at themselves." That's a separate issue. All the kindest people I know, who do not go around taking the piss out of all their family and friends, have the ability to laugh at themselves. It's probably one of the reasons they are so kind -- they are accepting of themselves and their own faults and it makes them accepting of others faults as well. Making fun of someone because they struggle with something is not accepting. It's unkind.

You are just inventing a bunch of excuses for mean behavior and then acting like other people are simply not as evolved as you are. But what was your example of why this behavior is normal? Television sitcoms. You think because the characters on Friends or Modern Family are constantly making fun of each other, that's what a loving, accepting family or friend group looks like. That's fiction! IRL, close family and friends don't incessantly make jokes at one another's expense because that is mean, and functional relationships don't tolerate a lot of meanness in them.

And now you're claiming to be some kind of childhood development expert? Good lord. Parent your kids. Tell them it is unkind to make fun of other children. You don't need to sign them up for "roasting lessons" so that they learn to make fun of people in socially acceptable ways. That's a good way to turn your kid into a stand up comic, but it's not a good way to raise a kind, upstanding person.

You need to grow up.[/quote]

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