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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Guidance for ethics and morality that enabled western civilization.[/quote]

This is so funny.  I am reading “The Shortest History of Europe” by John Hirst and it is page after page of horrific and immoral things done in the name of religion.  And assuming you speak of Christianity, the Bible is also full of immoral things and endorses slavery, incest, mass murder, and scores of other atrocities.  It’s a highly immoral book.[/quote]

Alright. Enjoy your life without the ethics and morality promoted by Christ.

By the way, slavery has always existed and exists today with more people currently enslaved than any other time in history. Slavery was only abolished in large scale when the white Christian men who held power decided to do so in the name of biblical principles.

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WRONG!!!!!

The Curse of Ham (Genesis 9:18–27) was a passage particularly used by Christian slave owners to justify their enslavement of black people.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

The Bible not only endorses slavery, it tells you who to enslave, how to do it, and how you can beat them.  Pro tip from the Bible:  beat your slaves so they don’t die and you can avoid punishment.
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Wrong again dear.

Christianity is a Jewish cult and as such has different beliefs, primarily the divinity of Christ who taught that all people were equal in the eyes of god.

Because of this many early Christians were slaves and women (who were essentially slaves then).

But please go on denying history, although it doesn’t sound like your ignorance is making very happy or content. [/quote]

If Christianity teaches that all people are equal then why are gays persecuted for example ?  Why are there version the Bible (Corinthians ) that say not to eat or be around people that are doing certain things ?  Why are so many looked down on by “Christians” that are following the Bible to the letter?  You can’t count people that are ignoring many parts of the Bible in favor of the lovey dovey stuff that most human beings would do without an ancient book telling them to [/quote]

It’s not gay people, it is sinful actions. Just as someone choses to engage in stealing, adultery, murder, or rape.

It is really interesting what you believe “most human beings would do without an ancient book”.

Do you have any understanding of pre-Christian societies which were not shaped by Christian morality? Where women were property and infanticide and slavery were common? Anthropologically and historically the concepts “equality” and “human rights” are extremely rare. [/quote]

Seriously?  Women were considered property for a long time after Christianity.  It was only in the 20th century that women could have their own  credit cards.[/quote]

Of course. And the only reason why women have “equal rights” today is because of the uniquely Christian moral  belief that all people have value and are equal in the eyes of god. [/quote]

Goddamn I hope this is sarcasm.[/quote]

Do you think that “equality” is some type of inherent natural shared belief? Genuinely puzzled by your naïveté. [/quote]

Still waiting. [/quote]

I’ll jump in with the obvious and self-evident answer, to hope stop your petulance.

Unless you have the unsupported by evidence belief that values are inherent and instilled by god, it is logical to believe they come from a combination of natural and cultural sourness.  The primary one being the “golden rule”  or the ethics of reciprocity (check Wikipedia on it if this is unclear.  This is a concept that has existed for thousands of years before christ).

Quite simply, we treat others as we would like to be treated.  Societal cooperation is best for us and everyone else.  Pretty simple stuff.  Equality is one of those values.

So not exactly “inherent”, but as inherent and evolutionarily necesasary as any other value.

Can you calm down now?[/quote]

Nope.

Of course societal values come from sameness. But what determines if those values are to love your neighbor, or murder all infidels?

You are Wrong again. There is no such concept of equality in pre-Christian civilization. Your so-called distractor of the “golden rule” only applied to others of an in-group or shared status group. They had a version of this rule In ancient Egypt and Greece where slavery was widely practiced. Also there was a version of the golden rule in India where some people were born of low caste and deemed untouchable.

But go on, please do provide an example of any significant pre-Christian society which believed in universal “equality” and forbade slavery. [/quote]

So you admit that the concept existed well before christ in multiple parts of the world.  But it wasn't practiced WRT slaves or other classes so it does not count...  a qualification which somehow doesn't apply to slaves and classes during christ's time... he still gets credit for it.

Man, that is some twisted pretzel logic you got residing in your head.  Here's where you do "got me": I don't think I can navigate that pretzel logic highway, and I know it is not worth the time to try.

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I conceded no such thing. Prior to Christ, there was no belief that all human beings are equal, as evidenced by the nearly universal practice of slavery.

But go on, I’m still waiting for your examples of pre-Christian societies which abolished slavery and believed in “universal human rights”.

There should be plenty since this has nothing at all to with Christianity right? Why you so reticent to speak up and defend your positions? [/quote]

Slavery was practiced during the time of Christ and long afterwards -- even in the US in the 1800's.  Remember the civil war?  The north wanted to free the slaves and the south wanted to keep them, to work on the plantations - owned by Christian "masters" who used the Bible to justify slavery.
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