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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous]Just to play devil's advocate for a moment...

If self-professed Zionists say they believe in a, but anti-Zionists say Zionists don't believe in a but instead believe in b, why would we take the word of anti-Zionists over that of Zionists?[/quote]

That can go both ways. Zionists are very quick to explain what critics of Israel "really mean". When protesters say,[b] "From the River to the Sea"[/b], who should be the authoritative source for what they mean? The folks saying it or the ADL?  What is more important, how something is meant or how it is interpreted?

But, by all means, self-professed Zionists should explain exactly what they believe. I for one will take them at their word. But what they believe may well differ from what other Zionists believe.

[/quote]

Alternate explanation for bolded phrase please?[/quote]

Crickets....  what's the alternate explanation for "from the river to the sea" please?[/quote]

It was answered here:

http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/15/1208658.page#27623410

I agree with that post. "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free" speaks to freedom, not control. In contrast, the Likud charter says that "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty". Netanyahu recently reiterated this statement. Whereas Palestinians want "freedom", Netanyahu and his ruling party want "sovereignty". The Palestinian slogan doesn't describe the auspices under which they will have freedom, but just the desire for freedom. 
[/quote]

What is Hamas’ charter re: Jews?[/quote]

Jeff, got to disagree here.  “From the River to the sea” boils down to a lot more about freedom. It boils down to geography.  They want all the land back.  They want Palestine to replace Israel and thereby be “free.”  But what does Hamas mean by “free”? It’s an oppressive terrorist state, no democracy, no civil rights.  We all sympathize with the suffering of the innocent Palestinians.  But instead of playing around with words, can we acknowledge what is really intended here?

Netanyahu wanting “sovereignty” speaks to wanting an Israeli state.  Nothing particularly oppressive or surprising about they coming from an Israeli politician.

Finally, any lack of equality for non-Jews in Israel is rooted in the need to keep it as a Jewish majority state. It’s not discriminatory out of hate for others or lack of tolerance.  Tel Aviv has the largest and most celebrated LGBTQ population in all the Middle East, while homosexuality isn’t tolerated by Hamas.  Are we really implying that Israel is less tolerant than Hamas? [/quote]

You are conflating a number of different things here. Almost none of those chanting "From the River to the Sea" are supporters of Hamas. As such, they don't care what position Hamas has towards the LGBTQ population. Those who particularly don't care are the LGBTQ protesters who don't find this sort of pink washing convincing.

Israeli sovereignty comes with Israeli laws including the Basic Law that says describes Israel "as the Nation-State of the Jewish People". As you say, protecting Israel's identity as a Jewish nation means making non-Jews second class citizens, at best. It is remarkable that you actually justify this discrimination because you don't believe that it is based on hate. Israelis are not a homogeneous group so some may actually be motivated by hate. But, more to the point, does the motivation matter?

Again, "From the River to the Sea" speaks only to freedom. I'm sure that individual protesters have a variety of ideas about the governing structure that would ensure this freedom. You are free to have your opinion, but that opinion is simply not authoritative. Palestinians speak about freedom and Israelis talk about sovereignty. This is not a question of tolerance, but rather of control. Israel clearly says who should be in control. The Palestinians do not.

[/quote]

Palestinians elected Hamas.  Polls continue to show that Palestinians largely support Hamas.  And you’re saying that because of an English slogan using the word free that it conclusively establishes that Palestinians love freedom more than Israelis?  You don’t think boiling down the entire Israel-Palestine conflict into two cherry-picked slogans, then picking one of them that uses the word “free” and deciding it’s the right one is an oversimplification of one of the most complex political and religious conflicts the world has ever seen?

You’re worried about the non-Jewish minority in Israel’s right to vote?  Or Arab Israelis? Or Christian Israelis? Or Palestinians who live in Israel?  I’m just trying to understand because you keep referring to unjust laws in Israel, but[b] this conflict is between Palestinians who live in Gaza and not living in Israel.[/b]

To the earlier post of whether antisemitism and anti-Zionism can be separated, I think my answer is that they can be separated intellectually.  However, I’m afraid they cannot be separated in real life practice.   I think anyone can criticize Israel’s policies and not be antisemitic, but questioning Israel’s right to exist at all to me is antisemitic.[/quote]

I believe that is the crux of everything.  This whole mess is not and has never been limited to Gaza. [/quote]

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