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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Nope, not at the top 20, or maybe even top 30 anymore.  So many are able and willing to pay full price, and with test optional, it still won't matter[/quote]

What do you mean nope? There are many many schools where it does help even if they are not up to your standards.[/quote]

My standards?  I said it didn't matter for top 20 or 30 (said nothing about my standards).  My point is at top schools, full pay isn’t the hook you think it is[/quote]

+1. Full pay is not at all a hook at the top universities. Full pay and extremely wealthy? Now that's a hook. My friend is a billionaire. Her DC is a good student at a good school, definitely not the valedictorian though. She still got into HYP, because the family is probably subsidizing a ton of scholarships for underprivileged students with their generous donations. [/quote]

The list of blind schools where full pay does not help is easily googled, and yes they are mostly top schools.

PP's example is a development admit, which comes though an entirely different office than admissions office first, similar to an athletic recruit.[/quote]

In the 568 litigation it is suggested that development admits are themselves a violation of need blind policies, which makes sense. [/quote]

No, it does not. That persons ability to pay tuition is not considered. Suppose it is a nephew of a donor with a very different economic situation? I know it seems like the same thing but it isn’t. It’s not even done in the same office. [/quote]

I appreciate the nuance but you can appreciate the overall point. The 568 complaint doesn’t really argue that the schools directly violate the need blind policy (except maybe with waitlists) but that many of their other practices violate it, such as favoring development kids.  [/quote]

I’m not sure if you read the post you were replying to. The development admin isn’t always a progeny of the donor. When the development admit is admitted at a need blind school, they do not look at that person‘s ability to pay. Yes, I know it seems like splitting hairs but there’s really no other way to do it and still take development admits, which benefit the poorer students immensely.

Would you prefer there being no need blind schools? That’s really the likely result of this lawsuit being successful.[/quote]

It is splitting hairs. I think schools should have more or less whatever policies they want. My understanding is need blind allows them a special exemption from antitrust laws as they share certain financial data. But so long as they are in compliance with the law, then they should be able to do what they want. They should not be able to claim they are need blind when they actually aren’t - I will leave it to the justice system.

That being said I don’t think need blind is necessarily that great. Need aware schools balance things. Perhaps a high need student should be judged based on merit to some extent. The so called need blind schools use analytics anyway to structure a class that is roughly half full pay kids. I also think merit aid should be more broadly deployed [/quote]

And how are top schools where every admitted student would qualify for merit aid elsewhere, supposed to equitably hand out merit aid?

They can’t. And if they are not need blind, is that fair to all applicants? Is it need blind the most fair thing?[/quote]

I don’t see why need blind is an inherently better system. Schools provide financial aid to meet diversity goals and to attract the best students. There is a certain amount of aid that they are willing and able to provide. That figure doesn’t change in a need aware system.  One beef I have with the whole financial aid paradigm is that families who are just over the arbitrary threshold of qualifying for aid really get screwed and have to pay the [b]same as a billionaire[/b]. In many cases this is completely impractical.  A more fluid system that rewarded merit would work out better for these “middle class plus” families. If you look at these need blind schools they consist primarily of relatively poor and relatively rich kids - very barbelled system. [/quote]

You call it "a more fluid system".

Others will call it "a system that benefits me exactly where I am and penalizes others".

FYI, the threshold is not "arbitrary" in any way, it is laboriously calculated by folks who care at the colleges.  The fact you admit you are "middle class PLUS".  Know what that "Plus" means?  That you can afford it!  How many billionaires do you think there are?  There's only 724 in the entire US.  That means there likely isn't the kid of a single billionaire at your college.  How will making them pay more help, exactly?[/quote]

No, I'm a full pay parent.  Not a billionaire but nowhere near qualifying for financial aid.  When I was in college though, my parents needed some aid and they sacrificed a lot to send me to a top school.  They were what I referred to as middle class plus.  The system we have now is great for families below 100k in income and minimal assets.  They basically get full rides.  But obviously there is a cut off point where you have too much income/assets and you get nothing or next to nothing.  That cut off point, as I understand it, is not that high.  So let's say it's 200k/yr... there is a big difference in the financial position of a 200k a year family versus 500k versus a million.  But they all pay the same price for college.  At least with merit aid, kids who want a small liberal arts experience or a private college experience in general have an opportunity to get that.  I think many 200k ish parents are not going to be keen to blow 80k a year on a LAC.  Nor should they, because while the schools claim they can afford it, they really can't or rather it's not practical.  Merit aid opens the door for that kid, just over the cusp of qualifying for aid, to attend the type of college he or she wants to attend if his or her academic stats are at the high end of the school's expectations.  Merit aid is wonderful in that sense and schools should be very proud to provide it, along with need based aid.  Our best students should have a full range of educational opportunities available to them--not just if they are low income and not just if they are very affluent.[/quote]

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