Reply to Can we please retire the word "feminazi"?!?

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]14:05, if your working definition of feminism is misandry, you haven't been paying attention.  Or, more likely, you are cherry-picking extreme examples of women who have extreme views and using them to reinforce your pre-existign notion that emasculation of all men is a fundamental precept of feminism.

But seriously, those of you who are anti-feminist, what is your objection to fundamental fairness?  [/quote]

A textbook I was reading in gender studies class on feminism actually spoke to the negatives of masculinity and the need to reduce that. Masculinity is a negative in feminism. To me feminism does not equal fundamental fairness. I don't see much fairness in it at all. Fairness to me means working to advantage both men and women - not just women and particularly not women at men's expense. I don't see any feminist caring that men are murdered more, commit suicide more, are expected to endure domestic violence without complaint, aren't allowed to be vulnerable, are seen as less capable and irresponsible parents, die more on the job, are mocked/feared for being in nurturing careers (e.g. nursing, teaching young children), are perceived by many as potential child molesters, serve longer jail sentences for the same crimes, are expected to risk their lives, have to put women and children first, can't be too masculine, can't name call but have to take name calling, are pressured to succeed or are called lazy etc...

Feminism cares only about the advantages and privileges of being female. [/quote]

I don't totally disagree with you, but at the same time, I think it's kind of hard to argue that men have been, as a class, historically oppressed such that they need a movement all to themselves to talk about male empowerment and masculinity in the same way that women have needed a movement to talk about female empowerment and femininity. The historical oppression just hasn't been there for men in the same way that it has been for women, and when it has been, it's been mostly related to non-male aspects of identity (race, class, religion, sexual orientation, etc.). I've taken classes on this too, and most of the things that I've read that I found to be useful come from a place of "How to we reach gender equality?"  One way to talk about that is to highlight the "more" that males have historically had and try to bring some of that "more" to the women of the world by taking it away from the men. It's not my preferred structure for argument because I think it just furthers a gender competition, which I think is both toxic and counterproductive, but it is a legitimate opinion, even though it's one I disagree with.

The long list of examples you cite are not more horrible whether they happen to men or women. They are horrible when they happen AT ALL. But, for example, when a man calls a woman a bitch or a slut, there's a negative gender component to it that just is not there for many insults applied to men.  It happens, but not to the degree that it happens to women. If this has not been your experience, I envy you and am glad for you at the same time. It has, unfortunately, been my experience many times in my life.

For what it's worth, one of the things that I love about gender studies (vs. feminism or women's studies) is that it makes room for discussions of all of these issues, and the gender components that they have. I think it's very much worth talking about the evolving standards of masculinity and the freedom that men should have to choose whatever professions and interests are desirable to them, free from the prejudice of society against male involvement in those things. The degree to which fathers on this board are largely portrayed as bumbling paychecks who have no idea how to relate to their wives or their children - and no desire to do any of those things anyway - really bothers me, since that's not my experience and not the world that I want my children to grow up in. [/quote]

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