Reply to Homeless Man Killed by Fellow Passenger on NYC Subway

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]This is America. You shouldn’t be able to murder someone with your bare hands just because they are acting strange or having a mental health episode. That isn’t “self defense.” The law disagrees.

The people supporting the Marine are inching toward the notion that they should be able to kill anyone they deem a “threat.” And guess who they will consider a “threat” just because their fee-fees are agitated?

Holding this view, and acknowledging that the city has serious issues with the mentally ill roaming the streets and posing threats are compatible.

That said, the Supreme Court has taken an extremely expansive view of personal liberties. You have every right to be a raving mentally ill lunatic on the subway as long as you don’t commit a crime. Being mentally ill in public is not a crime. I’m supportive of looser involuntary commitment laws, but that would likely go against everything the current SC has been recently promoting in regards to a very expansive view of personal liberties. [/quote]

This guy wasn't "behaving erratically", he actually was dangerous.  Multiple people had said so, officially. That doesn't even include his multiple earlier victims, btw.

When people conflate crazy homeless people with dangerous homeless people, then more tragedies like this will happen.  Think more deeply.[/quote]

How was he actually "dangerous" in this moment on the subway? Did he threaten to harm others? Did he actually assault someone? Be specific - use his words verbatim. You are just insinuating danger over and over again. The court doesn't rule on feelings.

Listen, I am sympathetic that people were scared by his language and volume. I've been in the NYC subway plenty of times when the mentally ill are on-board; I lived in NYC for over a decade. When that happens you GTFO, you move away from the person, you help others (elderly, disabled, pregnant) get to safety.

But ya'll are arguing that "vibes" are sufficiently to literally kill someone who hasn't assaulted anyone. That is moving the goalposts on Stand Your Ground  waaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond what is legal, reasonable, or moral. [/quote]

Basically, [b]you're saying that a person can't do anything until the moment of physical assault?[/b] At that point, innocent people die. Pushed in front on trains. Beaten in the face. Hit with objects. Why are we allowing mentally ill people to walk around freely at the expense of their own safety and others' safety? That's not showing kindness at all. [/quote]

Self-defense laws have always hinged on proportionality. Choking a man for 15 min until he died wasn't a proportional response.

Not sorry, but the Marine is going to jail. [/quote]

And this is why most people stand around in subway stations and DO NOTHING when innocent victims are assaulted, raped, and/or get killed by mentally ill criminals.[/quote]

Nobody was assaulted in this scenario.[/quote]

NP this man had 40 arrests and multiple assault charges. If you follow the pattern, he likely was going to assault someone. [/quote]

+1 Yes[/quote]

No, actually the law does not support your assertion.

Somebody arrested 35 times for being a vagrant is not likely to assualt. [/quote]

I'm not sure if you are the same willfully blind person who is clinging to the notion that Neely didn't threaten anyone, but there new information being reported. Perhaps you should read it.

[url]https://nypost.com/2023/05/12/jordan-neely-chokehold-death-witness-praying-for-daniel-penny/[/url]

[quote]A straphanger who was on the subway when Marine Daniel Penny placed Jordan Neely in a fatal chokehold said Thursday she’s “praying” for Penny after it was revealed the 24-year-old would face charges tied to the high-profile case.

“I hope he has a great lawyer, and I’m praying for him,” the 66-year-old woman, who did not want to be identified, told The Post Thursday night. “And I pray that he gets treated fairly, I really do. Because after all of this ensued, I went back and made sure that I said ‘Thank you’ to him.”[/quote]

But wait, there's  more.

[quote]e subway rider said Neely, who had a history of mental illness, was threatening passengers after he hopped on an F train in Manhattan.
[b]
“He said, ‘I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet, I’ll go to jail’ because he would kill people on the train,” the woman said of Neely. “He said, ‘I would kill a motherf—er. I don’t care. I’ll take a bullet. I’ll go to jail.’”
[/b]
The retiree said Penny did not initially engage with Neely during the wild rant until things got out of hand and he felt the urge to step in.

“This gentleman, Mr. Penny, did not stand up,” the rider said. “Did not engage with the gentleman. He said not a word. [b]It was all Mr. Neely that was … threatening the passengers. If he did not get what he wants.”
[/b]
Neely had a criminal history with more than 40 arrests, law enforcement sources previously told The Post.

[b]“‘Gonna go to jail for life’? What? What penalties involve going to jail for life?” she wondered. “Could you tell me? Yeah, it’s not kicking somebody in the shin, or punching somebody in the face.”
[/b][/quote]

It sounds as if this witness statement, and likely others, played a role in the charges for second-degree manslaughter. The charge seems to reflect a prosecutorial determination that it using force against Mr. Neely was not unwarranted, but the level of force may give rise to a conviction.

Are people going to continue to argue that saying that someone threatening to kill is not an actual threat?[/quote]

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