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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][twitter][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]With his alleged birthday coming up, let's discuss the person that is being celebrated. Present your information and argument for Jesus, fact or fiction.[/quote]

Jesus was made up -- not of whole cloth, because a messiah was predicted.  But those were the olden days, before modern science and running water and a bunch of stuff that we now take for granted.

Kids can't imagine life without the internet.  Neither can I!  Remember those old movies where people would wait impatiently for the mailman to come?
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No he was not made up. [b]His existence and the words he spoke have been proven.[/b] What is likely made up is that he was the son of God. Probably not. Then again, how did such an extraordinary person come to have such extraordinary advice on how to be a good person?

In any event he was an amazing man and if we all followed his teachings the world would be a better place.[/quote]

Link? 
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Don't hold your breath waiting.[/quote]

[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2SyPPhwNfqQ&pp=ygUcaGlzdG9yaWNhbCBqZXN1cyBiYXJ0IGVocm1hbg%3D%3D[/youtube][/quote]

And Ehrman undermines his own argument by stating something as true, when it is not in fact true. Not [i]every[/i] scholar believes in a historical Jesus, and there are plenty of scholars now that have made well-reasoned arguments to the contrary. Ehrman also acknowledges [b]there is not evidence[/b], and then he makes his own specious speculation. [/quote]

Exactly. No evidence. Just stories.

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“Just stories” is exactly how we know almost every non-emperor figure from antiquity.[/color]

-Socrates: no contemporary documents, only “stories” from Plato and Xenophon 10–40 years later.
-Hannibal: no Carthaginian records survive, only “stories” from Roman enemies 50–150 years later.
-Apollonius of Tyana: miracle-working philosopher, one primary biography written 150 years after his death. Nobody in classics or ancient history calls these people “mythical” on that basis.

[u]Jesus has more and earlier attestation than most 1st-century Jews.[/u]

-Within 20–30 years: multiple letters from Paul (undisputed: Romans, 1–2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1 Thessalonians, Philemon) that casually mention Jesus was born as a human, of a woman, descended from David, had a brother named James (whom Paul met), taught specific things, was crucified under Roman authority.

-Within 40–60 years: Mark’s gospel (used by Matthew and Luke).

-Within 60–80 years: a Jewish historian (Josephus) twice mentions Jesus and his brother James. [b]That timeline beats almost every comparable figure from the Roman provinces.[/b]

The “stories” contain details early Christians had no reason to invent and every reason to suppress (historians call this the criterion of embarrassment):
-Jesus baptized by John (implies he was John’s subordinate and needed repentance).
-Denied by his own disciples.
- Crucified (a shameful, cursed death in both Roman and Jewish eyes).
-Family thought he was crazy (Mark 3:21). People making up a hero do not write these things.

Independent, hostile sources confirm the basic outline
-Josephus (Jewish, ~93 CE): Jesus executed by Pilate, brother named James, followers still exist.
-Tacitus (Roman, ~116 CE): “Christus” executed under Pontius Pilate in Judea, source of the Christian movement. These are not Christians repeating their own stories; these are outsiders who had zero interest in promoting Christianity.

A real movement exploded in Jerusalem within months of the supposed events Thousands of Jews suddenly start worshipping a crucified criminal as the Messiah — in the same city where he was publicly executed. That doesn’t happen with a purely mythical figure. It requires a real, recent, traumatic event that needs explaining.

[i]So no, it’s not “no evidence, just stories.”
It’s multiple, early, independent sources — some hostile — that align on a core set of facts, using the exact same kinds of evidence historians use for everyone else in antiquity.

If you reject that evidence for Jesus, you has to reject the existence of Socrates, Hannibal, Boudicca, Arminius, and dozens of other ancient figures on the exact same grounds. And literally no professional historian does that.
That’s the problem with the “no evidence, just stories” line. It’s not skepticism. It’s a double standard.
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And what evidence is there for God?  You know, Jesus's Dad.[/quote]

[b]There is no proof for God in the way there is proof for gravity or that 2 + 2 = 4.[/b]

There are arguments (cosmological, fine-tuning, moral, etc.), some of them pretty sophisticated, but none of them are universally accepted as conclusive.

Reasonable, educated people look at the same evidence and arguments and still land on both sides.

I’m not here to convince you. You asked for proof; I’m just telling you the actual state of play: there isn’t any proof that settles the question once and for all.

That’s why billions of people believe and billions don’t, and the philosophers are still arguing about it after 2,500 years.

Believe whatever you find most reasonable. It’s your call, not mine.[/quote]

Except there is ZERO data supporting gods and plenty to support the existence of gravity or 2+2=4. 
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