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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]The argument of "what's next? Protecting the egg and sperm?" is the most idiotic argument I've ever heard on any topic.  Period.

i don't know if I'm considered pro-life or pro-choice.  I believe that abortion is only justified in the case of rape or if the mother's health is jeopardized.  Or if the fetus has defects that will prevent it from having a decent quality of life. I don't believe in abortions because pregnancy is an inconvenience to the mother.  Rest assured, you still have *choices* - 1. to have sex or not have sex 2. to use protection (actually double protection would be wise).  If that fails, you have another choice 1. Keep baby  2. give the baby up for adoption.  Plenty of choices here.  I don't think that terminating a life for your own convenience should be one of them.  If you choose to have sex, you should be prepared to deal with whatever consequences arise from it.

I agree with the PP who suggested that medical experts should figure out when the fetus feels pain.  [/quote]

Ok, this position is why I'm convinced most anti-choicers frankly just want to punish women for having sex.  Do you believe that abortion should be outlawed to protect the rights of what you believe is a "life" or do you believe it should be outlawed to punish women for having sex?  Because first, you say that women who get pregnant should be forced to carry to term because they should have to "deal with whatever consequences arise."  And since you clearly don't consider having an abortion to be "dealing with the consequences," then you want to use pregnancy as a punishment.

You seem to justify this by referring to the fetus as "a life."  But if a fetus is a life, then why the exception for rape?  We don't go around killing born babies just because their mom was raped.  Why would we do so to a fetus that you claim is a life?

It appears, from what you posted, that a fetus is a life, but not as much of a life as the mother is, but the only time the mother's life actually outweighs the fetus' life is when the mother wants an abortion for reasons that aren't her "fault."  So, this pregnancy gets forced on women for having sex, even if they used birth control, and even if they (*gasp*) weren't ready to be a parent right then and there.

I'm pro-choice, but frankly, I have so much more respect for anti-choicers who believe abortion should be outlawed in all circumstances, even rape or incest.  At least they are ACTUALLY concerned with the fetus, and not just using it as an excuse to punish women for daring to have sex without feeling properly guilty about it.[/quote]

I'm the PP here.  I do get some of your points.  some are things I've thought about, and that's why I don't really know how I would want the laws to be written if it were up to me.  Yeah, I don't think a woman who has been raped should be forced to carry the child.  But if that's the law, then what's to stop women from saying they were raped, even if they weren't, just to get an abortion?  As for the mother's health - yeah, I don't think we should let the mother die in order to have the baby.  But if you start out your life motherless, does that make your life not worth living?  of course not.  So, I get that my opinion is hypocritical and I struggle to figure out where I really stand in all this.  I guess if I felt the need to really sort things out, I would discuss it with my pastor.  So, i don't know.  Maybe that's where I think things should go.  maybe women should be required to have substantial counseling or religious guidance (whichever she prefers) before getting an abortion.  I would think a counselor or pastor would be more effective then any law at getting the right and moral outcome for the mother and baby.

that said, I don't think you are ever justified in getting an abortion for convenience.  But not because i want women to be punished for having sex.  Hey, I lost my virginity at 15, so I'm in no position to pass judgment!  But even at that age, before having sex, i thought about whether I would be able to handle pregnancy if it happened.  I felt that I could carry the baby and then put it up for adoption.  If I didn't think that I could handle that, i wouldn't have had sex.  Sex = potential to create life.  we all know this so we shouldn't act shocked or victimized when we get knocked up.  So that's why the 'my body, my choice" argument bothers me.  You HAD choices and they resulted in pregnancy.

I have a simple question.  Why choose abortion over adoption?  Again, unless the mother's health is at risk, why?   sure, it's more convenient, but that's not a valid reason.

JUst want to add one more thing - a little perspective for those that use the "just a clump of cells" argument:

Week 5 (around the time you take a home pregnancy test)
-Now an embryo taking on the shape of a seahorse
-the nerve tube has closed
-primitive heart

Week 6
-arm and leg buds
-face is developing, embryo has eyes, nose and mouth

Week 7
-heart has been beating for a couple of weeks
-tiny hands resemble paddles
-Nerve cells and parts of the brain are developing, to take on their separate functions

Weeks 8 and 9
-embryo is lively, in constant motion, sleeping for brief periods
-Many organs have begun to function - kidneys produce urine and stomach produces gastric juice
*at this point, you'v'e only known you're pregnant for 3-4 weeks[/quote]

Why choose abortion over adoption?  Because, at best, pregnancy takes a huge toll on your body and well-being.  I had my first baby recently, and (luckily) had an "uneventful" pregnancy.  I wouldn't wish that on anyone who didn't want to carry a pregnancy through to delivery.  The nausea, the insomnia, the heartburn, the shortness of breath, the back pain, the eating and drinking restrictions, all for months -- that's not just "inconvenience."  That's a huge committment, even excluding all the things that can go wrong.  And it doesn't even begin to discuss the risk, pain and effort of labor and delivery.  So, yeah, if I didn't want the baby, I can see choosing abortion over adoption.  Pregnancy, labor and delivery are not "inconveniences," and calling them that minimizes women generally.

To me, having an abortion IS dealing with getting pregnant.  Or at least, it's one way to deal with it.  It may not be the one you would choose, but then, it's not your body.

I appreciate the honest discussion.  I do have a couple of questions for you:  you say that you don't want to punish women for having sex.  So why don't you approve of abortion for "convenience?"  Why can't you  avail yourself of choices after pregnancy?  And why do you assume that a woman can't come to the "right and moral outcome" on her own?  Or that she would find help to decide what to do if she needed it?  Why would we legally require her to do so?  [/quote]

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