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Reply to "Antizionism is not antisemitism/the current conflict "
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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Over the decades, [b]Palestinians have repeatedly pursued peaceful and nonviolent paths[/b] toward a just resolution with Israel — including diplomacy through the PLO’s recognition of Israel in 1988, participation in peace talks like Oslo and Camp David, grassroots nonviolent protests in places like Bil’in and Sheikh Jarrah, civil society initiatives for coexistence, and appeals to international law and the UN. Despite these efforts, continued occupation, settlement expansion, and lack of political progress have undermined peaceful strategies and fueled cycles of frustration.[/quote] Yeah see the thing about nonviolence is it kind of has to be your EXCLUSIVE approach. If “civil society initiatives” and “nonviolent protests” (both of which I wholeheartedly support) happen ALONGSIDE constant terrorism, they’re not going to have an effect. For reference, Oslo was in 1993 and Camp David was in 2000. In 1994 there were 26 terrorist attacks in Israel and in 2001 there were 118: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html. [/quote] Thank you for dictating “the rules” … Now, then. Please apply them to the attitudes and actual conduct of Zionists pre-1948 and report back to us. I’m assuming we will hear from you that non-violence was the exclusive approach toward “getting what the Zionists wanted”, yeah? That’s what I thought. Hypocrite.[/quote] DP. I don’t think anyone would really defend the conduct of the Irgun and other Jewish militias in Mandatory Palestine today, but let’s not pretend that it was only “Zionists” engaging in violence and terrorism then. There was basically a civil war within the territory for years under the British. [/quote] Sadly, you’re mistaken. There are PLENTY of people that defend it, excuse it, obfuscate the facts to dismiss criticism of what they did, and worse - I’ve personally observed posters in these threads justifying it. To be honest, my use of the word “conduct” in lieu of what more appropriately describes what they did (committed heinous acts of terrorism) is a representative example of how badly Zionists has distorted the history. We don’t talk about Nazi “conduct”. Why TF am I identifying what those groups did (and yes, they did far worse than their Arab contemporaries did) as mere misconduct? Because of the revisionist history that the West has been selling about Israel’s establishment for decades.[/quote] Stop comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic and beyond that it’s just lazy.[/quote] Contrary to what you apparently believe, you are not the authority to dictate what is and what isn’t a suitable comparison. I know you think you can control what can and what cannot be said by smearing others as anti-semitic, but that ship has sailed, kemosabe.[/quote] I mean, I do think Jews get to define what antisemitism is actually. Do you think white people should define anti-black racism? Should men get to define misogyny? People who consider themselves progressive generally hold that those who do not experience racism need to listen, to learn, to accept and not challenge, when others speak about their experiences. Except where Jews are involved. Non-Jews are still very happy to tell Jews whether or not things said about them are antisemitic. Holocaust inversion is antisemitic, full stop. There is a reason you’re invoking the Nazis and not, say, Stalin or Pol Pot or George W. Bush. And it’s not because the Holocaust is most analogous to the situation in Gaza (it is so, so, so not - as Deborah Lipstadt has said, comparisons to the Nazis “elevate by a factor of a zillion any wrongdoings Israel might have done, and lessen by a factor of a zillion what the Germans did”). It’s because you know invoking Nazis will inflict the greatest amount of psychic harm on Jews. That’s WHY you do it. That’s why use Jews’ own tragic history as a weapon to beat them with. [/quote] It’s presumptuous to try to tell someone what they mean and believe. Perhaps allow the person to explain the meaning behind what they are saying before jumping to malicious conclusions. [/quote] It’s presumptuous to tell a Jew they can’t recognize antisemitism when it’s plainly staring them in the face. Regardless of this person’s individual intent, I am telling you comparisons to the Nazis are antisemitic. If you compared Black Lives Matter activists to southern white lynch mobs, I’m pretty sure people would accurately call you out as racist, even if there are very, very broadly speaking similarities between the two (they have both been involved in violence). [/quote] Your comparison is repulsive. BLM protests : lynch mobs against the backdrop of slavery in this country = Israeli atrocities : Nazi atrocities? Are you f^cking serious?[/quote] YOUR comparison is repulsive, my friend. Hamas started a war; Israel is fighting that war to try to defeat them. Have they committed human rights violations? Probably. Every modern military has and does, including the US military. That doesn’t make them equivalent to NAZI GERMANY. Their intention is not to annihilate the Palestinians. If it is, they’re doing a spectacularly bad job of it despite their obvious military superiority. In fact, in EIGHTY YEARS of war, 135,000 Palestinians, roughly nine tenths of one percent of Palestinians have been killed. You are comparing that conflict to the Holocaust, an intentional genocide which wiped out six million Jews, roughly one third of the global Jewish population. It’s a gross comparison. It’s not accurate, it doesn’t advance the discourse in any way, and it’s intended to minimize Jews’ own tragedy and use it against them. Stop it already. [/quote] Are you denying that there is no genocide in Gaza? [/quote] No I don’t believe a genocide is occurring in Gaza. The difference between genocide and war is intent, and the requisite intent just isn’t there. I don’t deny that it’s a dire humanitarian crisis, and I (along with most Jews and Israelis) would like to see it end as soon as possible.[/quote] Maybe you should go listen to some of the Israeli politicians like Ben Gvir, Smotrich and even Netanyahu before you assume there is no intent. There's a reason why the ICC/ICJ have arrest warrants out for these criminals. And no, most Israelis support ethnic cleansing/genocide. [/quote] I have seen the statements of Ben Gvir and Smotrich and agree that they are disgusting bigots (we have those in the US government too), but nothing they have said establishes intent to commit genocide. Nor does the actual military strategy of the IDF. Indifference to human suffering, perhaps. That’s a feature of every war, though. Most Israelis DO NOT support ethnic cleansing/genocide, even if you’re defining that as support for the current war in Gaza. Not even most members of Likud (Netanyahu’s party) support it. A poll that came out a few days ago showed that roughly 70% of Israelis support ending the war in Gaza and signing an agreement for the release of hostages. Feel free to continue wildly speculating re: what Jews and Israelis think though. Don’t let facts get in your way. [/quote] By contrast, FYI, an overwhelming majority of people in both Gaza and the West Bank support the October 7th attack. There has been extensive polling on this. [/quote] Why does that shock you, after the decades of horrific abuse from Israel they’ve endured as homeless refugees in their own land? Are you really going to pretend that the Israelis wouldn’t poll at near 100% support for outrageous terrorist attacks if they had to endure even 6 months of what Palestinians have dealt with for the past 75 years? Get real.[/quote] This is too easy. I don’t even have to push to get you people to say the quiet part out loud. Stop justifying terrorism. You should be on a list. JFC. [/quote] To all you decent, openminded, progressive people out there who support the cause of Palestinian human rights - this was the entire point of my OP. Criticism of Israel isn’t always antisemitic. But you have to be very careful about what you’re believing and who you’re declaring common cause with. The above poster is claiming that support for October 7th is justified. It is undisputed that October 7th was a terrorist attack specifically targeting civilians. It was captured on video by the perpetrators. They beheaded people with axes (there is video of this). They murdered children in front of their parents (there is video of this too). They kidnapped and murdered babies. This kind of ideology is becoming terrifyingly common. See here for a description of young Americans saying “Bin Laden was right, actually”: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/11/16/tech/tiktok-osama-bin-laden-letter-to-america It’s not going to end well for anyone - non-Jewish Americans included. [/quote] How easily you brush away the harsh FACT that the very founders of the State of Israel did all of that, and much WORSE, in furtherance of their statehood aims not even 100 years ago. But now we expect everyone to be civilized and follow rules that we set for them, right? How reasonable of us! Nobody is justifying terror. Some are rightfully questioning why terror is good for the goose, but not the gander.[/quote] Even assuming Israelis committed atrocities 80+ years ago when the state was founded (which, I haven’t seen evidence of anything remotely as sadistic as October 7, but ok. Palestinians also committed atrocities back then). That means terrorism is ok/understandable now? “Americans scalped Native Americans when they conquered the land. And now you’re surprised that Native Americans are scalping random US citizens? Boo f-ing boo.” See how that sounds? You are ABSOLUTELY justifying terrorism. If that’s not terror apologism I genuinely don’t know what is. [/quote] I’m not justifying it, but feel free to believe what you want. I actually have no dog in the fight, which I’m sure we can agree is not the case with you. I’m merely blowing barn-sized holes through your pathetic insinuation that Israel and Israelis are in any way, shape or form innocents in all of this conflict. But please do continue obsessing over trying to add more names to the Betar, Canary Mission, ADL, AIPAC, and broader Gestapo monitoring list … it only takes one careless misstep. 😏[/quote]
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