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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Muslima][quote=Anonymous][quote=Muslima][quote=Anonymous][b]Women are not supposed to wear a hijab or niqab so they won't arouse men. That's ridiculous . [/b]Those who wear their hijab or niqab do it as part of their spiritual journey. Whether you believe that or not,  whether you think it' s demeaning to them is irrelevant. [b]Also your point about asking if that woman had a job and what type of job she has is a bit condescending. Many American women do not have a job, many are stay at home moms, by choice[/b]. Are they less than you because they don't have a job?  Your judgemental notions and ideas are what's wrong with society today.  We need more of the PP and less of you in the world! [/quote]

you are purposely putting words in my mouth I never said,. there are plenty of SAHM in the US (as SAHD) and they are not less then me or you. I simply pointed out that while with a hijab you can have a normal life and do whatever you want, which can be stay at home with the kids or be a neurosurgeon or a metrobus driver, with a niqab you cannot.  you conveniently chose to twist my words so you did not have to address what I was actually saying.

as for beign ridiculous that the  nature of the iqab, the history of the garment, where and who have been using it for centuries, clearly supports what I am saying ( interestingly men in the Arabic peninsula never felt the need to do their spiritual journey while clad in an iqab).  when the talibans captured Kabul and imposed the burka under penalty of death, do you think they were concerned by the spiritual journey of the local women? I know there are plenty of women in KSA and elsewhere who choose to wear it, it is part of their tradition, like women in India wear a sari.  but the origin of the garment is to make a woman's body invisible to the outside world and it is not by chance that the iqab originated in a place where women traditionally do not leave the house without a man.

thanks for pointing out that the world would be a better place with less people like me. you are wrong. I have never ever imposed my opinions with violence on anybody, I am a foreigner in the US and I live here and I accept and respect the laws of this place where I am a guest.  I strongly desagree with a lot of things here, some of them I find them wrong or offensive or funny, but I still show respect for what clearly is  important for others.  if there were more people like me, frankly I doubt the world would be worse off[/quote]

[Quote]I am not putting words in your mouth.  You have repeated the same thing again, stating that American women who stay home choose to do so,  well have you ever considered that some niqabi women also choose to stay home?   And that some of them have a job? Thank God not everyone is narrow minded and I know of niqabis in the US who have an actual job, outside of their home,  heck one even works at a public school in California.  Is it more difficult for them to get a job? You bet,  but it's their choice.  And May I remind you,  that many niqabis do not live in the West, they live in Muslim countries where their niqabs do NOT prevent them to get a job, as niqabs are part of the cultural norm. And yes,  the world needs less of you send more of the PPs, I still stand by that!  [/quote]

This is gets to the heart of my problem with the hairs Jeff is trying to split, between on the one hand Muslims and Islam, which he argues are amorphous and therefore can't be criticized as a group, and the Catholic church, which he argues has a hierarchy and can therefore be criticized.

There are two issues here. First, Muslima is speaking on behalf of all muslim women who ever donned a niqab, and saying that they all do it only for spiritual reasons. She even punctuates her claim by calling PP "ridiculous" for thinking that non-spiritual reasons might be involved. As PP points out, history and tradition make Muslima's claim about other Muslim women's motives not a little suspect. At the very least, since we shouldn't be saying that "all Muslims are terrorists," then Muslima shouldn't be speaking for all niqab-wearing women.

The second issue is that one could go further, and argue that Muslima is out of sync with Islam itself. Yes, it's true there's no central Islamic hierarchy. But there is a holy book that purports to be the literal words of God. It's a very rare Muslim who thinks the Quran isn't the literal word of God, as transmitted to the prophet by the angel. Therefore, I'd argue that the Quran itself can legitimately be taken as representing "all Islam." (Note I would never argue that you can do the same with sharia or the hadith, which do vary widely across the Muslim world, although Muslima has often claimed that a given hadith speaks for "Islam" when it suits her own purposes.) Here's what the Koran says about veiling: "Oh Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should case their outer garmets over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested." (Yusufali) In other words, it's to announce that you're a modest Muslim woman and to avoid sexual harassment - the latter I think we can agree involves arousal. So Muslima is out of sync with the Quran itself.

Anway. That's what bugs me about Muslima. That's also why I don't buy the distinctions Jeff draws about why you can criticize the Catholic Church but not Muslims/Islam. [/quote][/quote]

Stop lying.  Where did I say that all Niqabis wear them freely? And where did I say that I spoke for every Muslim woman? If anything you are the one with the brush, always talking about the poor oppressed Muslim women And my point has always been and will continue to be that regardless of what you say, the are Many and More Muslim women who Choose to wear the hijab/niqab than are forced to!  I haven't met in my life a single one that was forced to wear it, and I know many many Muslim women.  Does it mean that  they don't exist?  Of course not,  but that's NOT the norm! !! [/quote]

Hmm. I wonder why you haven't met those women.[/quote]
Muslima, what's with random capitalization?

Re: how many women wear niqab freely vs. by force or societal pressure, all it takes to find out is buy a dozen tickets to flights out of Riad, Jeddah or Doha. Count the niqabis that get on, and count the niqabis that get off. Multiply and extrapolate. That's your answer. [/quote]

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