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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Natural law assumes and requires a Lawgiver.  [/quote]

No, *you* assume a "lawgiver".  Causality is part of natural law. Therefore, natural law itself is not bound by causality and is not required to have a "source."   Just as PPs "uncreated creator god" is not required to have a creator.  Only without the magic tricks.[/quote].

See definition of natural law a few posts up.

Look, we can debate different ethical systems if you like, but natural law theory is as defined.[/quote]

Ok, so assuming the definition of "natural law" is "nothing else than the rational creature's participation in the eternal law" then [b]I'd ask for a definition of "the eternal law"[/b].  Which seems to make a lot of assumptions.  Sounds like we're on a collision course with tautology.[/quote]

As you wish.  So what ethical system do you prefer to discuss?[/quote]

It's polite to answer a question when asked.  ;)[/quote]

My apologies!  I thought I was respecting your preference to discuss an ethical system that did not assume God.  So, defining "eternal law:"

In short, God.

The longer answer:

You are correct:  I have already assumed the existence of God, Who is the cause of all existence.  God has, within His intellect, an Idea for the governance of His creation.  This Idea in the mind of God is eternal law.  This eternal law is imprinted in the nature of His creation.  Everything in creation acts according to their nature, and derives their proper acts and purpose from this law written into their nature.

Natural law governs human behavior in a more precise way than other creatures, due to our reason and free will.  So the full definition of natural law for humans is "humans' participation in the Eternal Law, through reason and will."  Humans participate by using reason in conformity with natural law to discern good and evil.

The most basic precept of natural law is to do good and avoid evil, and this applies to every human.  A human does everything he does only because that action [i]at least [/i]"appears" to be good.  Even when one chooses something one knows is bad, one chooses it under some aspect of good.  (I will cheat on my wife, but only because I am in love with someone new;  I will eat this fattening cake, because it is so tasty;  I will take my own life, but only because I am in so much pain.)

On the level we share with all living creatures, natural law requires we preserve our existence.  We also transmit life to the next generation.

On the human level, natural law requires we use the ability to know and to love, personally and in society.  We develop our rational and moral capacities through virtue, both of intellect (prudence, art, science) and will (justice, courage, temperance).  Natural law dictates what is necessary for a harmonious, functioning society (do not murder, do not rape, do not steal, do not cheat).

On the highest level, natural law intimates that our infinite capacity to know and to love shows human existence transcends this material life.  As both material and immaterial beings, our purpose is to know and to love an infinite being, God.

Natural law theorists who attempt to discern natural law apart from eternal law, apart from God, cut off the beginning and the end:  they drop the idea that God instituted natural law before the dawn of time, and they drop the idea that the natural end of human existence is eternity with God.

Is a great deal of natural law preserved in the middle?  Sure.  But it is deprived of its Authority, its universal obligation, its complete consequences, and its ultimate purpose.

In other words, a theist and and atheist could exercise their reason and come to the exact same conclusions of the requirements of natural law.  But the atheist's position would be an ideal that would never be met, and so a fantasy.

To be even more specific, an atheist could arrive at an ethical philosophy based on the words of Jesus:  the 10 Commandments (except the first three, which are about God), do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.  Those precepts could become the law of the land, of the entire Earth.  And natural law without God would still be a fantasy.

Because human beings would continue to violate these precepts constantly and almost universally without consequence in this life.  In fact, from the instant of a violation, an irretrievable moment in time and space, perfect justice in this life is absolutely impossible.

Natural law and ethics command how we "should" behave.  Only the existence of eternal law, of a Lawgiver, can give natural law its due gravity.  Otherwise, it is a thoughtful opinion, a hypothetical, a fine idea, but not reality.

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