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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Why should there be a written reference to Jesus during this lifetime? He was just a fairly insignificant Jewish peasant preacher while he was alive.  Once his movement grew after his death, written references began to appear.[/quote]

If a person is changing water into wine and resurrecting the dead, one would THINK those stories would be capture by literate folks.

[/quote]

That may justify skepticism that he indeed performed this deeds. But it is irrelevant to assess whether or not he existed.[/quote]

Well, the lack of primary evidence certainly supports the belief that he may not have existed. Furthermore, the Nicaean Council certainly had a say in what was "real" and what wasn't when it sorted through biblical books. [/quote]

No. The lack of contemporary evidence means that he was unremarkable like 99.9% of people who existed back then ( including many Jews who also called themselves messiah and had followers and that were also executed, many of them cruficied) -- and  that his original followers, like Jesus himself and like pesanants and fishermen of their time, were illiterate and relied on oral tradition, not written one. Of course, Greek-speaking educated  early followers, like Paul, wrote many letters a decade or two after his death.

But here we are talking about non-Christian writers. As I said earlier, Josephus and Titus wrote about him around 70 CE.  Josephus mentioned about James, brother of Jesus; Titus about the followers of "Chrestos".[/quote]

Yes, we all know about Josephus and Titus.  again - not enough evidence to support that Jesus was the Messiah - a few little lines written years after his death . . .

And I love the oral tradition discussion.   [i]The Odyssey [/i] - oral tradition, yes?  like the biblical stories?  all shared orally b/c illiteracy was more the norm than not

So I guess you believe the cyclops was real and that the Sirens lure men to their deaths.  [/quote]

I thought the question that was being asked here was whether there was evidence that Jesus lived, preached, and was crucified.  Is anyone holding up Josephus and Titus as evidence that he was the Messiah?

Frankly, I think that looking for irrefutable non-Christian sources that he rose from the dead or performed miracles is a little weird.  I'm not a Christian, but if I had irrefutable evidence that he did those things, then I'd become Christian, so I wouldn't be able to be your non-Christian source.

I believe that Jesus lived, preached and died.  I also believe that a lot of what he said made sense.   I don't believe that he walked on water, or rose from the dead.  [/quote]

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