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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Maybe it’s time to stop cornering him so that he doesn’t resort to desperate measures[/quote]

Cornering?  Strange.  I don't think you understand, but not surprising.  For many Americans, what goes on in Russia is a concept that's difficult to understand.

In the time-period of Putin's early career as a KGB spy, the KGB typically rewarded ruthlessness that achieved results.  There were no bounds, no rules, nothing off limits.  Assassination, blackmail, intimidation - not a concern for the KGB.  It was the perfect environment for a black-belt judo scrapper who grew up on the streets of post-war Leningrad.

I believe he is inherently aggressive.  For him, anyone who dares to contradict him is a threat.    Appeasement of that type of personality also doesn't end well.  Like a jackal circling prey, I believe he will relentlessly pick off the weak first and surprise attack the strong who could offer resistance.

As an example, if he steals something, rapes someone, murders someone - his expectation is you stand and watch; maybe even clap and cheer him on.  But this also means that the more you appease, the worse it will be.  This is why so many Russians are ambivalent to politics or even sending their children to die in Ukraine.  Many are brainwashed sheep.  If today milk is white, then it's white.  If tomorrow milk is red, then it's red.  If nuclear war is discussed as inevitable on television, then nuclear war is inevitable.

It is ironic that you believe that capitulation in Ukraine will solve the issue?  You believe Putin will be happy?  Will stop on his own?  On the contrary, I believe it will accelerate his aggression.  The portions of Ukraine being fought over include key natural resources and industry needed to sustain a wider global conflict, to include oil.

[img]https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fn3xxtovnzk191.jpg[/img]

Ask yourself, would you be fine having your child raised under the Russian government?  Where the only rule is abeyance absolute power?  If so, you're nothing but a slave, my friend.

Hopefully you understand what the Ukrainians are fighting for and why it's important to the World.[/quote]

Are you an expert on Russia?

Also, Ukraine and Russia are much less different than Ukraine wants the West to think 
I happen to agree with “political realists” that Putin’s aggression was caused by the US and NATO flirting with Russia’s neighbors 
To me it sounds logical. I think it was more than possible to coexist. 
[/quote]

You're arguing Russian propaganda points put to rest about 200 pages ago.  It shows just how badly you cling to tainted sources.  Seriously, you need to read everything in this thread before commenting.

Reader's Digest Version - Ukraine used to be Russia's most trusted non-ethnic-Russian allies.  They were even entrusted with nuclear weapons to fight as the front line of the USSR.  Although a lot of things happened, key events in particular I think changed the minds of many Ukrainians.  First was Chernobyl.  https://time.com/4313139/post-chernobyl-parade/   That broke a fundamental trust amongst many of the common people with Russia.  Second was the breakup of the USSR.  Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Georgia, etc. all "got out" and nothing bad happened to them (well, at least not from the West).  They realized they had "missed their chance" to become NATO allies.  Third was probably the 2014 invasion.  Again, you can read about that in prior pages.  But this is why Russians take such offense to Ukraine flipping them the bird.  They're shocked that Ukrainians don't love them and welcome them with flowers when their elderly are killed, children are kidnapped and women raped.  Go figure.

The point is that you're under the belief that anyone in the West expects anything but co-existence out of Russia?  The War in Ukraine was strictly one-sided.  Russia invaded Ukraine on a half-baked premise.  You remember Putin's threat "lie-down my darling and take it" threat just before the invasion?  You think that's a person who cares about co-existence?

All Russia needs to do is leave Ukraine and poof - the war is over.  It's that simple.

Now, will Russian relations with the West ever be the same again?  Would you trust a government who's good with burning down city apartment buildings using thermobaric weaponry?  Regularly threatening to use nuclear weapons on National TV?  But my guess is you've never been to a place like that.  Be glad you're here.  This could be your hometown:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh5m0uEkItw[/youtube]
[/quote]

Do you seriously think university professors like John Mearsheimer are Russian propagandists?[/quote]

Ah, Mearsheimer - the Chicago prof?  I think he's fallen from grace.

I like his Conventional Deterrence strategy and I do believe he is correct that attrition (and I would extrapolate logistical) warfare is the way to go nowadays.  I also agree with him that Ukraine should've maintained a nuclear deterrrent (and we see the results now).  But that was the work he did over 20 years ago?

But I think the point that you're trying to make was either is "Why is Ukraine the West's Fault" piece?  But you conveniently left out the part where he said, "if you really want to wreck Russia, what you should do is to encourage it to try to conquer Ukraine.  Putin is much too smart to try that."

This is where I diverge with Mearsheimer.  He blames Ukraine and Georgia wanting to join NATO in 2008 as "starting the war."  From a Russian propaganda sense, if you're a Russian Kremlin ultranationalists, I would agree.  [b]But remember that this was not the rationale Putin initially used to wage war against Ukraine.  It was to eradicate Nazi's and liberate Russians in Crimea, remember?  This is where you're falling for Russian propaganda.[/b]  Where history has been reshaped and remolded to fit your own personal bias.  Before that (2016'ish), the Russian propaganda line was that Poroshenko (aka "porky", as Russian propagandists called him) was corrupt, so that's why Russia needed to invade in 2014.  But that propaganda line couldn't be used effectively on Zelenksy (but seems to be retested again, reading recent posts?). "The West" (references help, if you have specific examples and wish to discuss) also didn't encourage Putin to attack Ukraine.  You can claim NATO was a trigger, but that's only if you buy into the concept that Ukraine is a subservient vassal to Russia, versus an independent nation capable of self-governing.  Again, a Kremlin propaganda line.  And I believe Mearsheimer did become a Putin apologist in 2022, imho; so yes, I think he's been influenced by Russian propaganda, consciously or not.

Although you cling to Mearsheimer, the convenient omissions of fact really reveal your motives.  My guess is that the Russian deep undercovers are using Mearsheimer to undermine US policy with military and political officials; so keep that in mind when you hear "oh, Mearsheimer says.."[/quote]

I don't understand this expectation.  Every single country uses some form of propaganda before invading or doing similarly unsavory things.  I mean for Iraq, it was first WMD, then bringing democracy to the Middle East, then...something!  When the informed circles knew it was really about oil.   When Israel behaves thuggishly in the West Bank, do you think they are announcing "we are doing this to annex more land"? No, it is always some line about security etc.  In conclusion:

[img]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31sG7YkPNTL._AC_.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

DP /

What other countries in modern history have invaded their neighbors that they were in good terms with? and what other countries do propoganda on the scale of Putin’s Russia.? As in make deals and break them and then lie that the other country were the ones committing the war crimes they carried out? [/quote]

It doesn't have to tick every box but the fact remains that every country going to war comes up with a noble reason why they are doing it, for public consumption.  No country says, Imma invade country X 'cause I freakin' hate their guts, or because I really want a piece of land they own, or whatever.  It's always democracy security values safety people blah blah blah.[/quote]

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