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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]OP:  your argument that god exists because without him, there's no objective justice, which would suck:

"I'm thirsty, therefore, there must be a glass of water."[/quote]

I like that!

But I already put aside that argument as the nonbelievers' derisive "argument from wishful thinking."

What I am focusing on now is that nonbelievers have a problem.  There is a high price to pay for materialism, which excludes absolute and objective justice.

We have used several examples based on murder, but justice has to do with far more mundane and quiet things in life.  Let's use a different example:

A college professor of ethics gave his students a term paper.  The assignment was to write about any ethical topic of her choice, backed up by reasons and proper documentation.

One student wrote eloquently on the topic of moral relativism.  She argued there is no such thing as objective truth in morality, no absolute and perfect justice.  Her paper was well-written, neat, documented, the proper length, and submitted on time.

When the paper was returned, a huge F was at the top, with one comment:  I DON'T LIKE TIMES NEW ROMAN!

Furious, she went to office hours to complain.  "This is so unfair!  So what about the font!  I did the assignment exactly as you asked!"

The professor asked, "Do you really believe there is no such thing as objective truth in morality, no absolute and perfect justice?"

She said, "Yes, that is what I believe."

So the professor said, "I can respect that.  I don't like Times New Roman.  You get an F!"

We can see our belief in true justice by the way we react to others.  Justice does not describe how we actually behave, but it prescribes how we ought to behave. [/quote]

Social contract, etc, etc...  Now the student goes to the dean, gets the grade reversed, and the professor loses tenure.  That's not because there's a god, but because there is a rich network of explicit and implicit agreements that make up the teacher-student relationship.

Two children are playing Monopoly.  In the middle of the game, one of the kids just helps himself to a large bundle of cash from the "till".  It's clear he's done "wrong", as an agreement to play the game is an agreement to follow the rules.  Otherwise there's no point in playing.  Cheating in Monopoly debases the game.  "Cheating" in grading debases the quality of education.

No appeal to a higher power required. [/quote]

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