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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Universal access devaluates education. 4-year college used to mean something. Now it means nothing. PP is right, garbage in, garbage out.

It needs to be MUCH more competitive (based on merit). [/quote]

I assume that you mean it "devalues" education.  I could not agree more.  Buying into the notion that college is only for the rich or "very smart" is a slick way of saying that you want to limit opportunities to certain types of people.  IMO, that would only worsen the income gap that is currently growing. If you think the middle class is in danger now, then just wait.

Besides that,  community colleges are not 4 year colleges.  Also, community colleges are the primary providers of vocational education and occupational certifications in the country.  Not everyone who is going to a CC is pursuing a 4 year degree.  So, if you make the 4 year colleges more competitive, what do you do with those that don't make the cut?  Highly likely that those folks would attend CC to try to create opportunities for themselves.  I am just not in favor of any plan that makes it HARDER for people to educate themselves. [/quote]
You should assume English is a foreign language for me, but thank you for educating me.

I don't want to limit opportunities. I want to be realistic about everyone's limitations. Not everybody is cut out to be in a highly intellectual field. We also have limited demand for mid-range paper pushers. Our corrent policies result in oversupply of semi-educated people who still resort to menial jobs. Yet those who can pursue meaningful education are stuck with an even higher price tag, because the market forces them to go for advanced degrees.
[/quote]

Ok... but we are talking about community colleges (2 year colleges) and I think that your argument ignores the demographics of the people that are currently and traditionally being educated at community colleges. [/quote]

I don't see how my argument ignores the (changing) demographic. The same principle applies whether we're talking about 2 or 4-year colleges.

Think about it this way. There are many online resources that are 100% free. Classes (oftentimes guided, i.e. with a human instructor checking in and providing feedback) are available in a wide variety of subjects. Still, what is the market value of this education? Another example is the infamous University of Phoenix (or any similar institution). Seeing it on resumes makes hiring managers laugh. It is not fair, because I do believe people out in time, money and effort on getting their MBAs. But in the real world it's not worth anything. I would hate to see CCs be devalued even more. What do you think will happen with all the kids who were counting on CCs to save money as opposed to the 4-year college route? What good will it do if good schools stop accepting CCs' credits?[/quote]

I understand your point but once again, you have to look at your CC student demographic. High concentration of vocational students. High concentration of students who are only seeking an associates degree related to an occupational certification. High concentration of working students, including working parents.  And sure, there are some students who use it as a bridge to a 4 year school because of cost and academic immaturity.  Your contention seems to imply that some sort of free CC program will increase the number of folks who try to use it as a bridge to a 4 year program - whether those folks are academically inclined or not.  I do not agree.  I think that you may get some kids who get on the college track, but I think that most of increase will be students who attend for the vocational and occupational programs that are not offered at most colleges (but are offered at those "fly by night" private insanely expensive vocational colleges).  Just my opinion though.[/quote]
I'm all for vocational training to be widely available. However, I do think we should spend public money wisely, i.e. on those who demonstrated both initiative and ability to succeed in academic environments. This is how all "free" educational systems work: tuition is afforadable to non-existent, while entrance exams are quite stringent. You can't give everything to everybody, so rationing in some form is inevitable. Why not make it merit-based?[/quote]

Excellent argument[/quote]

As long as you understand that your education is directly related to where you grow up.  If you grow up in a poor school district, it's not going to be as good.  So what does merit look like?  Also, does that mean that there are no second chances?  So if you have a son who struggles, as many boys do as they mature later - but eventually get it together, do you just pass them by because they did not score well or do well in school?  Only those top performers ever get a chance?[/quote]

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