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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I was wondering about what it means if a church/parish is Catholic and designated “affirming?”  Do they hold a different view on administering sacraments, specifically marriage?  [/quote]

In my experience they do not perform gay marriage as a sacrament but do bless gay marriages if asked. I am Catholic and think this is bare crumbs but it’s something. I have gay friends who consider themselves Catholic and this is meaningful to them, as is Pope Francis’ recent outreach to LGBTQ communities.

I believe if the Church as a whole does not move on this, it will collapse.[/quote]

And yet the churches that have become gay affirming — all of the denominations listed in this thread — have steadily lost members to the point of extinction.   Go to your average United Methodist Church on a Sunday morning and you will find it empty or dying.   Another Episcopalian church just closed a few miles from where we live.

Meanwhile, churches that have a more orthodox view of Christianity are growing and thriving.   I don’t mean orthodox just with respect to this issue.  I mean churches that openly preach the Gospel.   I attend a Gospel church with 5,000 people every Sunday that is not gay affirming in the sense that we do not perform gay marriages.  But we absolutely don’t bash gay people either — in three years, I can only remember one sermon on the subject and it was also in the context of the ways that many straight people dishonor Biblical marriage.  Our church website has two very thoughtful perspectives on whether to attend gay marriages celebrated elsewhere — I have read both and I would have no theological issue with attending a gay marriage, even if our church doesn’t perform them.   I do believe there are “middle grounds” here in between having a prominent rainbow flag outside your church and making this single issue part of your identity — even more than the redeeming blood of Jesus —  and being mean and cruel to gay people on the other side.

Regardless, though, it’s simply not true that if churches do not become more gay affirming, then more churches will collapse.   The exact opposite has happened in the real world.  [/quote]

Have you always attended a gospel church or did you come from one of the "affirming" churches that you no longer approve of and that you say are dying?

I went to an affirming church, and before that, a Catholic Church and now I'm an atheist.  It's a common progression as more and more people realize that there is no God. Right now, it's happening in "affirming" churches.  Soon, it will happen in Churches that only preach the gospel, like yours.[/quote]

I actually had the opposite path.  I grew up Catholic and then was very much an atheist for about 20 years — lived for myself, my career, money, achievement, materialism, fancy vacations, sex, and romance (not always in that order).   I achieved a lot of success, made a lot of money, had sex with a lot of women — and realized all of it was profoundly empty.   On a complete lark I went to this church 3 years ago because despite having everything on the surface, I felt profoundly lost in the world.

I haven’t missed a Sunday since.

I realized after going there that I actually never heard the true Gospel — I certainly had not heard it growing up Catholic.  My best friend in high school went to an affirming mainline church and I also went to church with his family from time to time and I never heard the Gospel there either.   The mainline affirming church was arguably worse than my Catholic Church — less mystery, longer and more boring sermons.

I also never, ever saw the Gospel truly reflected in the lives of the people I was around.   My biggest memory from going to church growing up was my parents getting into fights driving to church about ancillary things — what clothes we were wearing, whether we would be two minutes late, someone forgetting the church envelopes.

My best friend — his dad was very active in the church and yet the grumpiest person I have ever met even to this day.   There was certainly no Christian joy in him.

The Christians I found myself around seemed just like anyone else and their faith seemed to have no impact on their actual life.

The people I have met at my Gospel church are completely the opposite — truly the nicest, most welcoming, most genuine, sincere, and authentic people I have ever met in my life.   I have already walked through crazy life events with these people — deaths, breakups, bad career circumstances, divorces,  illnesses.   I’ve had some of these in my life too (not a divorce thankfully!).   And the contrast between these friends and my work colleagues is night and day.   It is a true community and the type of agape love that Paul writes about in his letters.

Anything can happen.   You might be right.   But I doubt it.  There has been an explosion in these non-denom churches and there is zero sign of it abating.   They are everywhere now.   My own church is planning to plant many more churches in the next 5 years and that’s after they already planted churches and opened up 4 new satellite campuses in the last 5 years.

It strikes me that in your religious experiences you probably never heard the true Gospel either.   Check out Tim Keller sometime.    [/quote]

You describe the life of a hedonist, not an atheist:  "lived for myself, my career, money, achievement, materialism, fancy vacations, sex, and romance"
[/quote]

No, I would have said there was no supernatural God.  The atheist position.  And if there is no supernatural God, then just live for earthly pleasures and pursuits.

Even with my lack of organized religion, I still worshipped many gods — small g.  There were many things that I devoted my life to and thought they would bring me happiness and fulfillment.  If I make partner at my law firm.   If I make lots of money.  If I marry someone beautiful and kind and with whom I am get along with.  If I travel to cool, fun places.   These small g gods also had their own set of rules and rituals just like any religion.   And I had all kinds of opinions and views on the universe that I couldn’t scientifically prove around issues like equality, justice, human rights.   I had lots of faith actually — just a very different type of faith.

I eventually realized that all of my counterfeit gods never fully satisfied me and didn’t necessarily forgive me either when something went sideways - which they did.

[/quote]

The things you mention as small gods or counterfeit gods aren't gods at all - they are earthly pleasures.[/quote]

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