Reply to Exclusive school clubs in 4th and 5th grade

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Our school does have some things like this, but other things are mentioned to kids themselves and parents are only contacted if their kid indicates interest. If you have a kid that doesn’t always volunteer themselves and/or just doesn’t pay a ton of attention, that’s another possibility. One of my kids is invited to do everything while another is barely cognizant that the activities exist; if it weren’t for kid #1, I’d think opportunities weren’t advertised to the kids themselves… but because of kid #1, I know they are.[/quote]

OP here, that could be it.

Thanks to the other PPs too. I don’t think the leadership club in this case is code for behavior improvement—I know the kids and they are good kids.

Exclusive clubs are not the same as ability-based, open-through-competition clubs. Teachers inviting certain kids quietly is problematic in elementary in my opinion. Letting kids try and fail is a good exercise. But creating opportunities only for certain kids and quietly/almost secretly is quite another. I don’t know exactly what’s happening though and didn’t want to jump to conclusions.[/quote]

But the point is that some of the "exclusive clubs" are things that the kids implicitly auditioned for via their classes (DCPS math bowl, DCPS Google competition, Battle of the Books, DCPS 5th Grade All Star Choir). The math instructional coach, the music teacher, etc don't need to do sham auditions, because they already know which kids can do math, read books quickly, sing well, etc. Your kid was eligible and considered, he just didn't get it.[/quote]

What does “implicitly auditioned” mean? Shouldn’t the kids and parents (in elementary) be told these opportunities exist? You can’t compete for or be motivated by something if you don’t know about it. I’m perfectly fine with my kid being told you’re not good enough for this if that’s the case, but that’s not what happened. [/quote]

It means teachers have access to all kinds of information about your kid and they place them into the opportunities based on that. Like at our school, the kids who score above a certain threshold on the assessments get to have a special math club, those who score above a certain number on ELA get to join a book club. [/quote]

I'll also add that these are not "advertised" and I know certain parents who would flip their [lid] if they found out their kid wasn't included. That's probably why they aren't advertised. But they are wonderful opportunities for the kids involved. [/quote]

They should be advertised. Kids should know that if they don’t do well, they don’t get access to opportunities. They shouldn’t find out about the opportunities third hand because teachers don’t want to deal with kids and parents.

The bigotry of low expectations![/quote]

Again, many KIDS will know about these opportunities. My kid's school announces the results of things others have mentioned -- Math Bowl, Google Math Comp, Battle of the Books -- on the loudspeaker during morning announcements. [b]Parents not knowing and kids not knowing are two different things.[/b]

For all the people bashing teachers, keep in mind teachers would be the ones ultimately picking no matter what selection metric was used. Yes, schools should have clubs/opportunities for all kids. My school has plenty: 3 different choirs even for kids who like to sing. But that's very different than whether it's OK for schools to have exclusive clubs that they don't tell all parents about or have formal auditions for and, to me, the answer there is a resounding yes. Even if OP is sad her kid didn't get picked.[/quote]

Kids caring and parents caring also seem like different things -- kids seem to just accept this stuff, but ive seen fellow parents really freak out when they find out their kids isn't included in something like an enrichment. and actually, many times these opportunities happen, are amazing, and then are taken away, and I wonder if some of that is because the other parents are complaining. [/quote]

[b]These problems would be solved with transparency. If you simply told parents "this is what is available, here is how selection happens" then you wouldn't have the problem of parents finding out later on that there is some opportunity their kid never had access to and then feeling it was unfair because they have no idea how kids were chosen and whether it was just a question of signing up by a certain date or a teacher selection or expressing an interest or what. [/b]

But schools don't like being transparent about things like this because that would mean they'd have to be accountable for it. If they told parents "they is based on academic performance" then parents might ask how that is assessed and what the cutoffs were for inclusion, which, if the school is actually cherry picking students based on teacher favorites and not using consistent metrics.

Schools will try to tell you "oh no it's better if this process is totally opaque and happens without parents knowing because parents just complain and are a problem." But if you have a fair process using clearly articulated metrics that are consistently applied, parents will accept it. It's just often there are no clear metrics and the process is intentionally vague in order to ensure teachers can include kids they like and exclude kids they don't. [/quote]

Yes, instead you'd have parents lobbying their teachers and complaining their kids wasn't selected. Sometimes it's not about a specific cut-off, it's about teachers exercising their discretion. That's also what happens with cut sports, the roles in the school musical and basically everything else in life... and that's OK. The notion that everything can be broken down into a rubric with black and white performance selection metrics is crazy and the fact that some parents will expect it is what makes schools stop volunteering information and, worse yet, opportunities.[/quote]

If you can't explain the metrics for selection, it's not a fair process. And yes, if choices are made based vaguely on "teacher discretion" then parents will lobby the teacher because the teacher has made the selection entirely about her judgment.

But if you can articulate reasons, parents will shut up. Like it can just be "we base it on test scores and then sometimes add a kid whose on the bubble because of interest and classroom maturity," then if a parent is in there arguing their kid should have been selected, you can say "I didn't feel his classroom maturity is there yet, but it's something he can work on." Parents are not going to argue a teacher on that, plus that's actually good info for them.

If you make it totally opaque and seemingly arbitrary, parents will think they can argue their kid in because there's no rhyme or reason to it. Or they will complain to high heaven about it being unfair. Transparency solves this.

Schools, and teachers, are often terrible at communication and then blame parents for not understanding. This is my biggest pet peeve with schools because it's a solvable problem. Instead we limp along with dysfunctional systems that make everyone annoyed.[/quote]

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