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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]In reply to the poster who said Zionism as expressed originally is an ideology that says 1) Jews are a nation; 2) Jews cannot integrate, whether for their own reasons or widespread anti-semitism, into other societies; 3) therefore a homeland is necessary; and 4) all Jews should emigrate to that homeland.  Certainly, assimilation helps Jews avoid antisemitism for a while, but eventually not so much.  And Zionism does not require moving to the homeland.  Zionism does require supporting the existence of that homeland so it'll be there when push comes to shove, as it inevitably does.
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Fair point on emmigration.  I just don't see anything unique about Judaism or anti-Semitism that makes integration impossible and discrimination inevitable.  But, I'm an American and that's a very American mentality.

The Babylonians, Romans, Persians and Russians exiled lots of different people throughout history.  Genocide has also sadly happened on more than one occassion.  Heck, it wasn't even new for the Germans who did it to the Herero first. [/quote]

For whatever reason, Jews keep getting persecuted everywhere they go.  We even created a few words for it: Holocaust, pogrom, and antisemitism.  We can speculate on why it keeps happening, but Jews have a long history of it.  The desire to have their own [b]land where Jews are in control [/b]is not a surprise.[/quote]

Do you understand the problem with applying this mindset to a land where another people currently happens to live?

What are you planning to do with the natives to put and keep Jews in control?

What HAVE you done with the natives?

Israel has successfully promulgated a series of myths to explain why there are now Jews where there used to be Arabs.  Including:

- they attacked us so we had to expel them

- they fled at their leaders' request to come back after the Arab victory but we won so they never came back

- little brave Israel fought and won the unwashed hateful Arab hordes so here we are.

All of this mythmaking was necessary to cover the ugly truth.  Israel's downfall is that it was formed in the time where it was no longer acceptable to voice it.  Here is the truth: a Jewish state must have a Jewish majority and a Jewish rule.  We had to create both in a place that didn't have it originally.  It doesn't matter how we created it. What matters is that it had to be created, and it was. The end.

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Anyone living on US soil is guilty of the same.  The land belonged to the Native Americans, and we pushed them into reservations.  Along the way we broke all sorts of promises and committed all sorts of atrocities like the Trail of Tears and slaughtering most of the buffalo.  Essentially, we are just as guilty as the Israelis.  Probably even more so.

I don't like what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians, but can you imagine what would happen if the Native Americans were responsible for 9/11, the Oklahoma City bombing, and a bunch of other attacks on US soil?  Damn right, we would lock them down hard on the reservations.  We would control everything going in and out and try to neutralize them as much as possible.

But the Native Americans would be just as justified as the Palestinians in continuing their violence.  We took their lands and really destroyed their way of life.  Would you be condoning continued Native American attacks on US soil?  What if a number of close friends or relatives died to a series of Native American attacks.  Would you grant them control of the US government?  That's the pressure Israel is essentially facing.

I'm not saying Israel is innocent, but we are hypocrites.[/quote]

What a pile of horseshit. Every descendent of the native population alive today and living within America's current borders has full citizenship rights like everyone else in the 336M population of America (along with some services and perks that non-native populations DON"T have access to). Moreover, the U.S. government could gift 75 acres tomorrow to EACH and EVERY descendent of the native groups tomorrow, from the current inventory of federal land, and still leave the BLM with around 200,000,000 acres. And that would be separate from the massive reservation properties that have been established, and the distinct, favorable tax rules, etc.

We can't resurrect the millions of natives who died before their time, the vast, vast majority of whom actually died of inadvertent transference of disease. They weren't indiscriminately cut down my F35 aircraft and other assorted armaments provided by Uncle Sam. And yet we still made efforts to atone for our sins. Maybe insufficient efforts, but something.

So cut the shit. The sins of slavery and the treatment of native populations here in the U.S. are awful enough, but none of that history has been deemed acceptable for at least the past 150 years. Trying to equate Israel's actions today to sins committed in the past is frankly disgusting, and a prime example of why Zionists are reviled so often by others. It's not Jesus killer nonsense. It's not paranoia. It's not scapegoating or jealousy or any of the fantasies you've concocted to explain why others have despised you at points throughout history.

It's the transparent narcissism and indefatigable defense of your own actions that callously harm others. That's why there's resentment. That's what angers people. And that's why we need to see serious reform in Israel. And it's coming, one way or another. Otherwise, this train is chugging down a path that is highly unlikely to result in an outcome that keeps those in the region, including and perhaps especially the Jewish population, safe and secure.[/quote]

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