Reply to What am I if I think Jesus was the best moral teacher ever but am indifferent re his divinity?

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Yes, there are no contemporaneous accounts of Jesus, who was after all a poor carpenter from a humble family. History in that era was, as we know, about emperors and heroes. Jesus' own followers were by and large illiterate. Until a few decades later when Jesus and his message became "important" enough for officials like Josephus and Pliny to write about.

I wonder that 12/25 10:21 wants to toss out all four gospels and Paul, which together show that Jesus' teachings and the movement around him were strong and vibrant just 2-3 decades (Paul and Mark) after his death. Sure, if you disregard the several major narrative documents that appeared a few decades after Jesus' death then you're forced to rely on accounts from 80-90AD and later, and th historical links become more tenuous. But simply tossing out the earlier sources seems disingenuous.

It's also odd that some of you are trying to claim that all religion is about "controlling the masses." Who exactly created this fundamentally anti-Roman, anti-Temple ideology with the purpose of "controlling the masses"?  If anything, more historians would say that Christianity developed in revolt against the Roman conquerors, instead of as a tool used by them. But then there's also the tricky question around how Jesus was also opposed to the logical alternative leaders, the Temple lawyers and priests.

So who, exactly, developed this supposed "controlling ideology"? And how did it suddently appear as a significant movement, seemingly out of nowhere, by 55 AD?[/quote]

There is evidence to support that Josephus' account was later inserted by Christians.  Similarly, Tacitus, scholars claim, simply reiterated what he heard from Christians.  There may also be confusion between Christus and Chrestus.

So you're picking and choosing small accounts, which are not necessarily accurate, to prove that Jesus existed.  Again, there are extant works of famous Greek playwrights that are studied to this day.  Yet there are only a few accounts of so-called Jesus who performed miracles.

Study your history, scholar.  The pageant plays were designed to bring these biblical stories to the masses.  It's called indoctrination, and it was in the form of entertainment.  Greek tragedies were didactic. If you pissed off the gods, you were doomed.  not much different from today, eh?

Look - this is your belief. I get it. Many people NEED to believe in something to get them through life.  But faith isn't based on facts.  It's a feeling.  So even if scholars explain to you the reasons behind certain beliefs, your faith will trump evidence.

[/quote]

Link to the "evidence", please! So far you've waved your hands and mumbled stuff about "evidence" involving [b]Horus and Mithras[/b] (which as you know many  here find hilarious) and "evidence" that references to Jesus were "inserted" in Roman texts. Let's have the evidence, please. Links, please. Good links, not to some atheist site that makes this stuff up.

Now you're citing passion plays that emerged decades and centuries after the gospel accounts that you so casually dismiss as "picking and choosing." Who was the audience for these passion plays? Why did the audience come to the plays, and where did the seed of their interest begin? Your chronology is off and you've got it backwards.

If anybody is up picking and choosing, it's you for dismissing the earliest sources without giving us a reason. No, mumbling and waving your hands don't count as a reason.

You still haven't offered any reasons for:
- why we should simply ignore the early accounts of Mark and Paul (apart from some less-than-convincing mumbling about picking and choosing),
- proof the references to Jesus were "inserted" in Roman sources, or
- who, exactly, created Jesus to control the masses with passion plays or scary gods or whatever else you keep mentioning without addressing this fundamental question about origin and "who benefited" in 55 AD. Not plausibly the Romans, not plausibly the Jewish leadership, not plausibly the folks who staged passion plays [i]after[/i] there was a decent audience for these plays. So who, then?

Tip: your patronizing tone does zero to support your point. If you present your claims maturely, with logical chronology and claims, supported by more than just your snark and giving god forbid links to scholarly sources, then you might improve your credibility to a DCUM audience. I'm one of the many Borg readers here, so I'm not wedded to a rigid narrative. In fact I know many of the claims. And I know your particular claims don't stand up to even basic logic. Why don't you try to do better. Seriously, I like these conversations, but you're not holding up your end.[/quote]

Why should I respond in detail when you've accused me of mentioning Horus and Mithras?

You're getting your myths confused here, hon.[/quote]

Hahahahaha. Unless you name the myths you were referring to, we'll all be forced to conclude you're nothing but an ignorant troll whose only weapon is insults.

Bonus points for addressing any of the totally legitimate questions in PP. Oh wait, you just parroted these from some ranting atheist website and you have no clue how to answer them, do you?[/quote]

No one is parroting anything from anywhere.  If you examine religion through multiple perspectives - history, sociology, and psychology - you'll see the trends. The less we knew the more myths we relied on.  Sadly, people still fight science and history by embracing these outdated beliefs.

and polytheistic cultures?  Certainly if you believe in your omniscient god, you wouldn't think to question Poseidon, correct?  After all, didn't he control the seas?

oh wait - He was later REPLACED by ONE god.  So the Greeks got it all wrong, I guess, b/c suddenly - POOF! - the all-knowing god sprouted up.

right- And I grow candy canes in my garden, too.[/quote]

Look, a straw man! Over there! It's Poseidon!

Hey, I'm familiar with the socio-political arguments. I even voted socialist on my first ever ballot. But even then, your particular line of reasoning, about the supposed straight line from Poseidon and his ilk, didn't work for me. Show me the 2000-year-old document saying "let's control the masses with a new monotheistic god because Mount Olympus is losing followers" and we'll talk. Oh wait, you not have this papyrus from 2000 years ago? Why ever could that be?[/quote]

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