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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Other than a few hockey players and lots of attractive women who seem to enjoy doing porn there is not much Russia offers the rest of the world for culture or any real value.

After Russia loses in Ukraine I hope the country spends a few decades evolving into something tolerable.  [/quote]

Most of "Russia's" culture and history actually came from Ukraine.  They even stole the name Russia from the Kievan Rus.[/quote]

:shock: Did you attend college?[/quote]

Yes.

Did you?  Did you know that Ukrainian Cyrillic is older than Russian Cyrillic?  Did you know that the founding documents for your capitol, Moscow, are in the Ukrainian archives - and why?  (psst, it's because they chartered founded it, Kyiv was already a city when Moscow was nothing)[/quote]

You say this like it means anything.[/quote]

Whatever propaganda and revisionism you learned in your Russian schools is of no interest to me[/quote]

I’m not here to be of interest to you. Just to challenge an obviously inane assertion that the age of cities means anything. Is St Augustine more important than Chicago? [/quote]

DP.  Actually, it is very meaningful and explains why Putin is throwing so many Russian lives on the fire.

Regarding Russian history, it depends largely on the timeframe you're talking about.

Historians believe that Swedish Vikings led by Rurik invaded southward into Slav lands from Novogorod (the Viking base in the North).  In the mid-ninth century the Eastern Polans settlement of Kyiv was captured by Rus boyars (high nobility but not princes) and passed to Rus prince Oleg (879–912), a relative of Rurik, who moved the capital from Novgorod to Kiev; who subsequently declared Kyiv to be the mother of the cities of the Rus.

Kiev was initially ruled under the kagan (Great Prince) and his druzhina (armed henchmen) of the area labeled now as Kievan Rus.  Sviatoslav I 943–972, V.  Prince Vladimir the Great (980–1015) spread a Byzantine monotheistic religion in 988, which could be considered the foundation of the Russian Orthodox Church.  Under the Rurik dynasty, Kiev remained the governing city of the Rus until 1169 when it was sacked and the seat officially moved northwards to Vladimir.  The Rurik dynasty of Kyiv was effectively succeeded in the Ukraine region by the principality of Halych-Volynia in 1199, which had its own, second Rurik dynasty.  By the 13th century, Kievan Rus fell to the Mongol Golden Horde.  The area of modern-day Moscow was actually Mongol-conquered lands under Mongol rule / overlordship throughout the 14th century.  The Russian Orthodox Christianity was established and flourished in Moscow around 1325, but paid tribute to the Khan of the Great Horde until the late 15th century.
  
https://mappingeasterneurope.princeton.edu/item/rus-a-brief-overview.html
https://academic.oup.com/book/714/chapter-abstract/135383262?redirectedFrom=fulltext
https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternVladimir.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir-Suzdal

In summary, Moscow was ruled by the Mongols for a few hundred years and was not the heart of the Russian Empire.  Depending on the argument made, either Novogorod or Kiev is techncially the actual birthcity of the Rus empire.

I believe this is one reason why Putin is ideologically wedded to the idea of re-unifying Ukraine and Russia.  The Russian propaganda dilemnna - how can you have a "greater Russia" without the heartland of the Rus?
[/quote]

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