Reply to Gaza war and College Campus Protests

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Mustafa (not his real name), an anti-Hamas activist in his mid-30s living in Gaza who agreed to speak to The Times of Israel by email on condition of total anonymity, described life in the isolated enclave under the rule of Hamas and the Israeli blockade as an “open-air prison.”

Mustafa said that with over 70% youth unemployment and an average per capita income per day of NIS 20, or $5.5, intermittent access to electricity, and undrinkable tap water, life in the enclave is barely livable for the vast majority of citizens who are not somehow tied to Hamas.

Leaving the Strip requires at least $10,000 to be smuggled out illegally, with high chances of dying on the way to freedom, he added. This is all because “Gazan civilians are exploited as a pawn in a struggle between regional forces, and Hamas uses its citizens as human shields to defend its project of ‘Islamic resistance’ while it silences and threatens to kill any opposition,” he continued.

A professional who describes himself as a “liberal and a democrat” interested in “humanitarian issues and free citizenship,” Mustafa estimated that the current wave of demonstrations has only just begun, since in his view the protesters’ demands are not limited to electricity, but aimed at ultimately overthrowing “the military regime and the rule of the clerics.”

With regard to relations with the neighboring Jewish state, Mustafa expressed his wish for a Palestinian government with “new, clear and rational policies toward Israel and the occupation army, without regional alliances,” referring to Iran’s support for Hamas and other radical groups.

“The Israeli side looks at us as terrorists, not as people with dreams and aspirations,” Mustafa said. “But the reality is quite different: Most of the people of Gaza are innocent civilians living in dire humanitarian conditions. They only dream of a decent life, freedom, justice, peace and democratic elections.

“This is why people took to the streets. To demand their most basic rights, an improvement in their living conditions, an end to poverty, unemployment, the lack of water and electricity, and to protest the imposition of power by force, being silenced and spied on,” he said.

“You can divide the people of Gaza in two: a large majority living under the poverty line, and a small ruling elite affiliated with Hamas and other Islamist factions, who live off the funding received by the ‘resistance,’” he added.

From his personal perspective as a peace activist, Mustafa said that “these demonstrations do not come out of thin air.” In his words, they express the “conviction of the Gazan people that peace is the solution. Gazans want an end to the occupation and the Israeli siege, and they want an end to the bloodshed that has been going on for so many years.”[/quote]

I don't really understand the relationship between Gaza and the West Bank. before this conflict, could Gazans have opted to live in the West Bank?[/quote]

It’s  much easier to move to  Israel or Egypt than it is to move from gaza to the West Bank.  With Egypt, you’ll just need cash to bribe an Egyptian soldier or truck driver to smuggle you over.

If a Palestinian wants to apply to move to Israel, they have to forfeit traveling to west bank or Gaza ever again and note that some things are illegal in Israel like raising a Palestinian flag or mentioning the Nakba.

You’d be surprised how many Palestinians are ok with this if it means their safety is guaranteed in Israel from Israeli bombs or Palestinian corruption.

So the situation is a splintered community impossible of making one unified state which perfectly serves israel. People in Gaza are in Gaza and have never seen the WB Palestinians outside of Facebook  and people in the WB have never seen the Gazans and the Israeli Palestinians are the biggest oddities of all as they don’t see anybody as they have to say they are Arab and aren’t allowed to say Palestinian. They have to say they’re Israeli. Their communications in Israel are also all monitored.

The Hamas leaders have family members inside Israel as it’s not unusual these days for many Palestinians to have Israeli family members.  Haniyehs sisters lived in Israel and his nephews even were  in the idf.

It’s not unusual for certain parts of families to just never see each other in person anymore (only via email and social media communication) because one man of a family decided  to permanently move his fam to Israel and work there [/quote]

What is this magical application process for Palestinians to move to Israel? Are you on drugs? Are you aware Israelis married to Palestinians can’t even bring their spouses to live together and Israel? But hallelujah, there is a secret source on DCUM that knows it’s easy. Tell us![/quote]

I didn’t say it’s easy. I said it’s easier for a Palestinian to move to Israel or to Egypt than to the West Bank.

To move to Israel, they have to permanently forfeit that they’re Palestinian and if they move to Egypt, that also helps Israel because they won’t return. The idea of Israel is to erase the Palestinian identity and the idea that it deserves any state at all.

It’s not even easy to go from one West Bank town  to another  these days because of the settlements. The entire mentality of Israel is Palestine doesn’t exist, didn’t exist, and shouldn’t exist as a continuous state and allowing cross border entry from Gaza to the WB to ans fro is impossible. Therefore, Palestine as a state can’t even be a functional country that can succeed [/quote]

I’m gonna be real blunt : there is no legal process for a Palestinian to move to Israel. I don’t know what you’re on about but there just isn’t. [/quote]

I guess I'm wondering how Gaza will ever "succeed" even if rebuilt. Seems like it's a bombed out concrete strip riddled with toxic waste and tunnels. Better to resettle everyone there somewhere more hospitable- like the West Bank? And then they could consolidate power and identity a little more, hopefully with more moderate leadership and education than under Hamas. I'm fine with handing over illegal settlements in the WB to Gazans, and give Gaza Strip to the illegal settler types to rebuild I guess. [/quote]

They can’t leave Gaza. You’re stuck where you are unless you can leave to Egypt somehow. The best way to leave ironically is to have a male relative join Hamas. That’s the best way to leave because once he makes money, he can get his family out to Egypt. Israel isn’t paying much attention to Egypt with this war but they should because they’re the key to this not Iran.

Egypt is a poor country these days so it isn’t on Israel’s radar like Iran is but they knew enough about Hamas to warn Israel ahead of time about 10/7. For some reason,  Egyptian intel always gets ignored by the Israelis and US even though it’s accurate [/quote]

Egypt doesn't want an influx of Palestinians. They have been battling the Muslim Bortherhood (ie Iran) so are inclined to have a role in the conflict, but don't want an influx of Hamas. That being said, resettlement of the vetted civilians in the WB, Egypt, Jordan or Lebanon is probably what needs to happen. Is Gaza even habitable" Everyone on these threads keeps saying it is not.[/quote]

That betrays a complete lack of awareness of history. Jordan and Lebanon are certainly not taking any Palestinians. Read up on Black September and the Lebanese Civil War. In both countries, Palestinians sought to overthrow governments and caused great violence. They murdered the Jordanian prime minister and sought to assassinate the Hashemite king. Egypt is a fragile country as it is. Their biggest internal problem is the Muslim Brotherhood. Islamic extremists have already assassinated President Anwar Sadat. The last thing Egypt is doing is importing two million radicalized adherents of Hamas into an unstable and very poor country. And of course Palestinians can't go to the wealthy Gulf countries. Palestinians sided with Saddam Hussein during his invasion of Kuwait and were subsequently expelled when Kuwaitis got their country back. And since Palestinians are now allies of the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Houthis in Yemen, they are regarded as Saudi Arabia's mortal enemy. And Gazans certainly aren't going to the West Bank. The West Bankers hate the Gazans. In 2005, it was Gazans that were throwing out Fatah leaders from windows when Hamas took power in Gaza. No one in the West Bank is giving up their land for the muslim extremists from Gaza.

The people in Gaza made their choices - even beyond their invasion of Israel. Gazans have nowhere to go. Gaza will always be their home. It's a shame they took the billions in aid that was given to them for infrastructure to build tunnels and buy weapons instead. Because those billions aren't coming back. Gazans made incredibly poor choices, and they will be living with them behind their walls for generations. [/quote]

Many of the things you mention were done by the PLO. The PLO’s belief were kinda like Israelis and the Americans. The PLO believed  Arab countries because they have a military and a brotherly bond  and permanent  alliance should fight Israel for them.

Hamas’s belief is they can form their own military and they don’t need Arab countries to fight for them. If anything, they’ve fought for Arab countries. They helped the Egyptian military defeat ISIS in the Sinai, which helped the Egyptian Coptic Christian community/Egyptian government; and the Muslim Brotherhood  (two diametrically opposed elements in Egypt) appreciate Hamas. That’s like hell freezing  over.

Hamas   is appreciated in the Levant and Egypt for helping fight ISIS in the Sinai.  That’s like 50% of the Middle East right there if you include their friendship with Turkey and Qatar and Yemen and Iran.

The only anti-Hamas countries are Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates and Kuwait but they can’t bust a grape in a food fight. Their armies are weak. 
[/quote]

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