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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]If the end result of all of this is a divided Ukraine -- with Russia holding the eastern areas -- then was there any purpose to the war, even if Ukraine ends up "winning"?

Would Ukraine have been better off side-stepping the conflict by agreeing, months ago, to long-term neutrality with NATO membership permanently off the table?

Or would Putin have eventually launched an invasion even if Ukraine had signed a neutrality agreement?[/quote]

I have similar questions.  Is this going to just go back to what it was before?  Who won? Nobody.  I also wonder if Ukrainian war didn't get as much western support and all the weapons...would have it ended the same way but earlier without so many casualties, massive destruction and horrendous humanitarian crisis in places like Mariupol?  All that this created is millions of displaced refugees.   [/quote]

If Ukraine didn't get western support, Russia would have won and massacred even more of their people than they already have.[/quote]

What?  From the looks of it Russia had plenty of opportunity to massacre 100s of thousands of Ukrainians already, but they haven't . Explain this. If this were ethnic cleansing civilian casualties would be through the roof.  
[/quote]

Mariupol and a few other cities are full of mass graves of civilians slaughtered by Russia.  Peaceful villages have been completely leveled by indiscrimiate Russian artillery shelling.  And even now Russia continues to randomly lob hundreds of missiles at Kyiv and other cities hitting one civilian target after another.  Stop candy coating this.  The only reason hundreds of thousands more Ukrainians have not been slaughtered yet is because of the incompetence of Russia's military planning versus the fierce determination and western help on the side of Ukraine.

Stop candy coating Russia's vile actions.[/quote]

+1 
and Ukrainian refugees who fled.

This is what people are candy coating, a Russian war crime, two Russian soldiers rape a Ukrainian woman repeatedly, in front of her crying 4 year old child, after they murdered her husband/her child's father.

[twitter]https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1509123344267948037?t=_ZIRV23g87cXFR-jA57Mxw&s=19[/twitter][/quote]

Look, nobody is candy coating anything here or arguing that Russia's actions aren't vile.  You have vivid imagination, find another outlet for this, because it's not helping your arguments.   It is a war and atrocities do happen during the times of lawlessness, it's stupid to assume that it won't happen at all. Ukrainian army is also putting civilians in harms way with their tactics of urban warfare where they position their ant-tank crews in the residential buildings and other non-military structures.  It is what attracts shelling and kills civilians too.  I suppose you read this article in Washington Post?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/28/ukraine-kyiv-russia-civilians/

[i]"But Ukraine’s strategy of placing heavy military equipment and other fortifications in civilian zones could weaken Western and Ukrainian efforts to hold Russia legally culpable for possible war crimes, said human rights activists and international humanitarian law experts. Last week, the Biden administration formally declared that Moscow has committed crimes against humanity."[/i]
[i]“If there is military equipment there and [the Russians] are saying we are launching at this military equipment, it undermines an assertion that they are attacking intentionally civilian objects and civilians,” said Richard Weir, a researcher in Human Rights Watch’s crisis and conflict division, who is working in Ukraine."
[/i]

I am still going to hold an opinion that this isn't ethnic cleansing conflict where the goal is to [b]exterminate specific ethnicity[/b].  If you claim that it is, then you had been living under a rock and have no knowledge at all about real ethnic cleansing conflicts of which there are plentiful examples around the world.  This is a different war which doesn't want to necessarily maximize civilian casualties, but where casualties are impossible to avoid.  Just read the article. [/quote]

This is one of the stupidest posts I have read in a while; which is impressive due to the high number of uninformed posters.

[b]So, by this logic; if Russia was rolling tanks into Arlington; if the US put a tank in Arlington to blow up the Russian tank then leveling Arlington is ok?[/b]

What are you supposed to do?  Send a text to Russians saying “tank battle moved to bull run battlefield .  See u there”[/quote]

This is exactly the point why there are increased civilian casualties.  When military on both sides fires at each other civilians die.  This isn't ethnic cleansing where invading army specifically targets civilians and exterminates them.  The invade specifically to kill and destroy EVERYTHING in sight, burn everything to the ground, it's not what is happening, or casualties would be magnitudes higher.    Sounds like some of you don't have brain cells to understand this or are unable to think logically blinded by rage.  While your anger is justified, facts remain.  Read the Washington Post article linked above and take it up with our press for not presenting this as a targeted massacre and ethnic cleansing of civilian population. [/quote]

Wtf?  Russia is shipping captured Ukrainian citizens into Russia.  They not destroying EVERYTHING in sight, they are cleaning Ukraine of Ukrainians by forcing them to become refugees or sending them to Russia.  That's ethnic cleansing.[/quote]

First, there is no proof this is happening in numbers that matter. Second, you are missing the “ethnic” part in ethnic cleansing. Ukraine is full of ethnic Russians who are citizens of Ukraine, or ethnic Ukrainians who speak mostly Russians or ethnic mixes that speak everything. Eastern Ukraine is primarily Russian speaking. So how exactly is this ethnic cleansing without a dividing ethnic line?[/quote]

Ukraine's ombudsperson says 408,000 Ukrainians--including 84,000 children-- have been forcibly moved to Russia to be used as hostages to force a surrender.
https://time.com/6160765/ukrainians-taken-to-russia/

Russian military arrests and interns in a concentration camp thousands of civilians from Mariupol. 5,000 are at a temporary camp in Bezimenne, east of Mariupol — 40,000 Ukrainians have been forcibly moved to Russian-held territory
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60894142

The Mariupol City Council claims Ukrainians are being sent to filtration camps against their will and then dispersed across Russia — a return to tactics last seen during WWII, the city's mayor said.
https://www.npr.org/2022/03/30/1089690421/mariupol-russia-deportations?utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com[/quote]

I don't have time to read all these articles, so I am not just going to take your interpretation of it for granted.  What PP is saying is that it's impossible to really draw "ethnic line" in Ukraine because a lot of people are mixed and speak both languages or Russian only and because of it being USSR for decades a lot of Ukrainians have families in Russia and vice versa.  She is correct in her assessment, it's a complicated situation and migration of large numbers of population out of Ukraine isn't in an of itself indicative of ethnic cleansing and especially slaughter of massive numbers of civilians you allege is going on.  It's isn't hard to believe that some Ukrainian citizens may want to move to Russia or at least be evacuated there as it's closer to them, or just get out of harms way.   I am going to expect these articles to show me proof that these are indeed concentration camps and that all of these people are held against their will and are forcibly taken out of their homes especially when these homes aren't under direct bombing attacks.   [/quote]

So if 1 Ukrainian out of 400,000 Ukrainians was hoping to be forcibly relocated to Russia, then you'll disregard the atrocities inflicfed on the other 399,999 Ukrainians?  Ok, makes sense.[/quote]

Exaggerating to call to emotions because you are experiencing strong emotions from your Twitter feeds doesn't make an argument.  I am going to argue that in Eastern Ukraine there is a high concentration of those who are Russian speaking and have families or ties to Russia who may be generally amendable to being evacuated to Russia if they have no other place to go.  This isn't even an argument, it is a fact that Donbass region had been unstable already for many years.  [/quote]

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