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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]If the end result of all of this is a divided Ukraine -- with Russia holding the eastern areas -- then was there any purpose to the war, even if Ukraine ends up "winning"?

Would Ukraine have been better off side-stepping the conflict by agreeing, months ago, to long-term neutrality with NATO membership permanently off the table?

Or would Putin have eventually launched an invasion even if Ukraine had signed a neutrality agreement?

[/quote]

I have similar questions.  Is this going to just go back to what it was before?  Who won? Nobody.  I also wonder if Ukrainian war didn't get as much western support and all the weapons...would have it ended the same way but earlier without so many casualties, massive destruction and horrendous humanitarian crisis in places like Mariupol?  All that this created is millions of displaced refugees.   [/quote]

If Ukraine didn't get western support, Russia would have won and massacred even more of their people than they already have.[/quote]

What?  From the looks of it Russia had plenty of opportunity to massacre 100s of thousands of Ukrainians already, but they haven't . Explain this. If this were ethnic cleansing civilian casualties would be through the roof.  
[/quote]

Mariupol and a few other cities are full of mass graves of civilians slaughtered by Russia.  Peaceful villages have been completely leveled by indiscrimiate Russian artillery shelling.  And even now Russia continues to randomly lob hundreds of missiles at Kyiv and other cities hitting one civilian target after another.  Stop candy coating this.  The only reason hundreds of thousands more Ukrainians have not been slaughtered yet is because of the incompetence of Russia's military planning versus the fierce determination and western help on the side of Ukraine.

Stop candy coating Russia's vile actions.[/quote]

+1 
and Ukrainian refugees who fled.

This is what people are candy coating, a Russian war crime, two Russian soldiers rape a Ukrainian woman repeatedly, in front of her crying 4 year old child, after they murdered her husband/her child's father.

[twitter]https://twitter.com/thedailybeast/status/1509123344267948037?t=_ZIRV23g87cXFR-jA57Mxw&s=19[/twitter][/quote]

Look, nobody is candy coating anything here or arguing that Russia's actions aren't vile.  You have vivid imagination, find another outlet for this, because it's not helping your arguments.   It is a war and atrocities do happen during the times of lawlessness, it's stupid to assume that it won't happen at all. Ukrainian army is also putting civilians in harms way with their tactics of urban warfare where they position their ant-tank crews in the residential buildings and other non-military structures.  It is what attracts shelling and kills civilians too.  I suppose you read this article in Washington Post?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/28/ukraine-kyiv-russia-civilians/

[i]"But Ukraine’s strategy of placing heavy military equipment and other fortifications in civilian zones could weaken Western and Ukrainian efforts to hold Russia legally culpable for possible war crimes, said human rights activists and international humanitarian law experts. Last week, the Biden administration formally declared that Moscow has committed crimes against humanity."[/i]
[i]“If there is military equipment there and [the Russians] are saying we are launching at this military equipment, it undermines an assertion that they are attacking intentionally civilian objects and civilians,” said Richard Weir, a researcher in Human Rights Watch’s crisis and conflict division, who is working in Ukraine."
[/i]

I am still going to hold an opinion that this isn't ethnic cleansing conflict where the goal is to [b]exterminate specific ethnicity[/b].  If you claim that it is, then you had been living under a rock and have no knowledge at all about real ethnic cleansing conflicts of which there are plentiful examples around the world.  This is a different war which doesn't want to necessarily maximize civilian casualties, but where casualties are impossible to avoid.  Just read the article. [/quote]

Stop both-sidesing this.  Ukraine's army wouldn't have to do that if Russia's hadn't illegally invaded (and raped their mothers in front of their crying children, which you just brush off as the business of war, which again, Ukraine did not do anything to provoke)[/quote]

+1.  No more "both sides"

"Ukraine is putting military assets in the middle of civilian areas" is so much bullshit.  I have yet to see photos of columns of destroyed Ukrainian equipment in the bombed out wreckage of Kharkiv and elsewhere.  Instead, what Russia is doing is using dumb bombs and indiscriminately pounding Ukrainian cities regardless of military value just to try and punish them and beat them down to capitulation.  It's nothing but blunt, brute force.  All of that crap Russia said about "we are not targeting civilians" and "we make precision strikes" has proven itself over and over to be nothing but propaganda and lies.  The PP needs to just stop repeating those lies.[/quote]

Why don't you all take it up with Washington Post and stop telling others what they should question or not question.  :roll:  CNN also had an article about nazi presence in Ukraine, and it is also the topic that prompts people to pause and start wondering.  I have nothing to do with the fact that this is a controversial and widely discussed topic.   So stop your stupid nonsense trying to control people's opinions.  Russia is the invader, they are in the wrong, there is no "both siding" when it comes to this fact.  But when someone is posting absurd statements like there is an ethnic cleansing war going on and Russians are there to rape and pillage and kill as many civilians as possible, I am going to call bullshit.  Why?
Because this is insulting to anyone who can read.  [/quote]

Uh, Russia *is* there to rape and pillage and kill as many civilians as possible.  Putin has even said as much.  And the recorded calls of Russian soldiers stealing civilians' things have been released.  Seems like the only information you avail yourself to, and spread, is the Russian narrative.  Stop being so self-righteous, it's pretty insulting for you to dispute this.[/quote]

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