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College and University Discussion
Reply to "where would Williams and Amherst rank in the ivy league.."
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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Sure, I guess. But with such extraordinarily selective schools, who really cares?[/quote] Williams and Amherst, and many other SLACS, are fantastic schools but they would rank lower than any of the Ivies in a head to head competition due to the lack of comparable science and engineering resources. They aren't really comparable which is why they are separately ranked. [/quote] Totally agree. Williams and Amherst can't compare with the ivy league because virtually all of them are much larger research institutions. [b]The academic resources of Princeton/Harvard/Cornell/Penn are light years ahead of Williams and Amherst.[/b][/quote] And most of it has nothing to do with undergraduate study.[/quote] I'd say having access to massive research institutes and facilities is pretty helpful in undergrad. DS does research at the school of Medicine and hasn't a day taken a course in the med school. Some people just use their resources better than others.[/quote] Do R1 research universities have higher medical school acceptance rates than SLACs or higher percentages of students getting advanced degrees in STEM? NO.[/quote] A few things to this response. My kid has no interest in medical school. It just happens to be extremely useful resource for him to explore his research interests. Medical schools provide a lot of interested computational, biophysical, and statistical research projects that an LAC wouldn't be able to replicate. Now to your second question, per capita, it depends on the cohort of students. Students with higher incoming stats are going to be more likely to end up getting into medical school. Only 1 Lac is in the top 10 for feeding students into medical school per capita and it's Amherst. 1/2 the Ivy League is in the top 10. Comparing school acceptance rates is meaningless when some schools really gatekeep and delay students from applying to medical school to keep their high acceptance rate publicity. I'd say the data is pretty clear that if you have to choose between Harvard or Yale versus Williams or Amherst for medical school, the former is the wiser decision if it's a true tossup. I especially wouldn't underrate going to a college in Boston, the hub for biotech and medical research in the country. [/quote] Well, there are over 2X as many National Universities as National LACs (USNWR). There are 2X as many National Universities to National LACs in the top 30 College Transitions top per capita feeder schools, so it is proportionate. [b]But another thing to consider is some schools, most notably some National Universities (e.g. JHU) have a disproportionate percentage of pre-med students, which skews the numbers. [/b] [/quote] Okay? They prepare a lot of people to go into medical school. That's a good thing.[/quote] OK, but if you are trying to evaluate whether JHU is more likely to get you to a top 25 medical school compared to say MIT, you probably want to consider that a much higher percentage of JHU undergraduates are pre-med. If you just look at the College Transitions per capita rankings, JHU is ranked 7 and MIT 8. But if you factor the number of applicants, an MIT medical school applicant is 4.7X more likely to end up at a top 25 medical school than a JHU applicant. That's a pretty big difference. [/quote] That is a good point. [/quote] Mostly extrapolation. Someone who isn't med school ready at JHU will not magically become Henry Brem at Williams.[/quote] But they might not end up being burnt out due to unhealthy cutthroat competition. And, by the way, a Williams medical school applicant is 2X more likely to end up at a top 25 medical school than a JHU applicant.[/quote] Source for those numbers?[/quote] The number at top 25 medical schools is from College Transitions. The number applying to medical school is from AAMC. https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-medical-school/ https://www.aamc.org/media/9636/download[/quote] So you’re making inferences off of two data sets examining different years and different data. Oh brother help us. This person doesn’t know what they’re talking about.[/quote] This is nothing more than what College Transitions did to start with, only with a more meaningful denominator. You just don't like what that indicates. Adjusted for size, College Transitions has Princeton at #6, JHU at #7, and MIT at #8. They are relatively close in size and in number of graduates at top 25 medical schools. But the reality is a much, much higher number and percentage of JHU undergraduates apply to medical school and this is true over years of AAMC application history. Their average applicant is significantly less likely to attend a top 25 medical school than Princeton or MIT. Here is how big the difference in the number of applicants is. JHU had between 470 and 506 medical school applicants over the past 4 years. For Princeton is was 133 to 150 applicants. MIT was 67 to 77 applicants. Huge difference. [/quote] About 70% incoming JHU freshman are premed. 1050/1500 About 33% (506/1500) JHU students apply to medical schools each year. Over 80% of JHU medical school applicants are admitted to at least one medical school. 400/1500 The weedout rate is > 60%. More likely than not, a student going to JHU would say bye-bye to their dreams of becoming a doctor. Similar figures in large premed hubs like WashU Vandy Emory. Parents! Protect your investment... Make wise decisions! [/quote] the good news is they can still get employable engineering majors. at a lac, no[/quote] Agree! MIT, JHU, CMU are stem schools where kids never need to worry about employment. I would send kids there over any ivy any day. STEM at ivies is basically a joke, with Cornell being an exception. Harvard is still holding the remedial math class this year.[/quote] What institutions in the world are better in science and math than Harvard?[/quote] MIT, JHU, Cal Tech,Georgia Tech[/quote] Harvard leads all of those universities and all of the universities in the world in Nobel Prizes in sciences and it isn't close. Harvard leads all U.S. universities in Fields Prizes (Mathematics). USNWR ranked Harvard ranked 1st in medicine before it stopped doing a ranked list, and it ranks Harvard 1st in Biological Sciences, Biostatistics, 3 in Mathematics, Physics, and Statistics, and 4 in Chemistry. You probably think engineers who attended Harvard are unemployed and underpaid, but WSJ reported that "Engineers who attended Harvard as undergraduates earn significantly more per year than graduates of other schools". You probably think the same for computer science, but again you are wrong. Harvard computer science grads have median earnings of $219,550/year ($400 less than MIT grads), which is $64,501 more than Georgia Tech grads and $36,446 more than JHU grads.[/quote] In the past century, yes H and P have produced a ton of nobel laureates. [b]But if you look at recent data 10 years, H and P have produced relatively far less than their golden days. [/b] In the next ten years, H won't be in the leading positions with this trend. And other ivies? Barely any news. And what about turing award? Did you count how many MIT and CMU produced?[/quote] No. Gary Ruvkun won the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 2024, Kaelin in 2019, Bertozzi in 2022 for Chemistry. In the QS World Rankings, Harvard is #1 in both Life Sciences and Medicine and Natural Sciences (and 4 of 5 total categories).[/quote] Do we care about where they attended school or where they work now? If we look at attendance, Ruvkun did undergrad at Berkeley (but PhD at Harvard), Kaelin did undergrad and med school at Duke, and Bertozzi did undergrad at Harvard (but PhD at Berkeley). So only 1 of them did Harvard undergrad[/quote]
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