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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Have discussions on this religion forum influenced you either away from or towards religion? If away, how? And if towards, which religion and why?
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Yes, I have always been agnostic; however this forum has really confirmed my beliefs that atheists are among the most insufferable of all beliefs.

The only more insufferable group I have come across are fundamentalist Muslims; who are truly brain dead.

Previously I considered switching from agnostic to atheist but both IRL and on the internet these people are so tedious and lack any understanding of evolution and history. No thanks. [/quote]

Any believers are braindead, hence why they still believe in myths and fairy tales. [/quote]

Way to underscore PP’s point

“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” - Voltaire. 
[/quote]

Aren't religious people certain that there is a God?[/quote]
PP is agnostic, so probably takes issue with certainty about God just as much as certainty about no God.[/quote]

Athiests are [u]not[/u] people who are [u]certain[/u] that there is no God.  They are people who [u]do not believe[/u] in God.  They are a-thiests, that is, Not theists.

Also, adult believers only believe in God and not any other supernatural beings, like fairies or Santa Claus.  Fairies and Santa are considered childish, but God is not.
[/quote]
What's the difference between atheist and agnostic then?[/quote]
Merriam Webster has this useful context under its definition of atheist: 
"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Atheist and agnostic appear in the same contexts but are distinct in meaning. Atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods. Agnostic has two relevant meanings: it can refer to someone who holds the view that any ultimate reality, such as God, is unknown and probably unknowable, or it can refer to someone who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of God or a god."
I get the impression that a lot of atheists on this forum are actually agnostic.[/quote]

No, they are mostly atheists.

AKA they are as certain about the existence of various gods as they are about fairies and leprechauns.

Do we go around saying we are Santa agnostic? No. 
[/quote]
Except I think most agnostics acknowledge there is a difference between deities and fairies/leprechauns/Santa. Only self-described atheists insist on pretending all these things are equal for the sake of a tired argument.[/quote]

They are all manufactured characters so...they are the same thing wrt "existence".

[/quote]

Dieties and fairies/leprechauns/Santa aren't all equal, but [b]they are all supernatural[/b]. Both adults and children believe in Deities (God).  Only children believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa.  Adults no longer believe in fairies/leprechauns/Santa.  They think they're silly and childish, but many adults still believe in God.  They take God very seriously.[/quote]

Right. They are all figments of their imagination. 
[/quote]

Just last night, I saw a short, (1:57 min) George Carlin video on religion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE . In it, he says something like "There's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do - but he loves you."   It's priceless.[/quote]

Another atheist comedian gets Christianity wrong. Not a surprise.[/quote]

That  short video about god  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoYyiNRtMEE is not wrong.  it's so right.  Christians do actually believe that "there's a man in the sky, who will punish you in a fiery pit for eternity if you disobey any of the 10 things he told you not to do  - but he loves you."  That's certainly what I learned when I was a Christian - not in those words, of course, but that was the message:  "Be good or burn in hell forever!"[/quote]

I can categorically say that as a Christian, I don’t believe that. Here is what I believe

1.  There is no gender in the spirit 
2.  God is love, light and transcends  time. space and place.
3.   God shows love and mercy to all. 
4.   God knows the inner thoughts of all and knows our motivations. 
5.  Any thought or action that we carry out that is motivated by selfless love is of God and therefore transcends time and place and will endure after our physical bodies pass awY.
6.  Everything in this life shall pass but God’s love and mercy endures forever 
7. There are many paths to God and there is room for all of us.

[/quote]

You have the same problem that most believers do, that you only accept your interpretation of religion and ignore reality. [/quote]

And you seem to have the same problem that many other atheists have, which is that you ignore acknowledge progressive/open religious theology, because they're not the loud fundamentalists you see on TV.

I'm agnostic. I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran (which is super conservative; women can't be clergy; lots of focus on sin; they only pray with other Missouri Synod Lutherans because everyone else is doing it wrong; etc) and for a long time I was angry about all religion. Understandably, I think. But then I grew up and saw that even within Lutheranism, there are more open, accepting denominations (ELCA Lutherans). I'm not going to go out and join an ELCA Lutheran church or start identifying as Christian again, but I recognize that my childhood experience is not representative of all Christian belief and certainly not of all religious belief generally. I don't like when people make assumptions about my beliefs as an agnostic, so of course religious people (especially religious people like PP whose beliefs are so different from the stereotype of a Christian) wouldn't like it either, and I'd rather just take those people at their word about their beliefs than argue with them about other Christians.[/quote]

Thank you! [/quote]

I'm the PP. I'm not ignoring open religious theology. I'm pointing out that your "open" thinking goes against the organized religion since they have their own set of rules that believers are supposed to follow.  When you have to make up your rules to fit your views, why adhere to any belief system?  [/quote]

Thank you for your question.

I don’t feel like I need to make up rules to fit my views. My faith tradition encourages individual members to use reason and think about what makes sense to them. It also advocates for inclusive love and anyone is welcome.

My church community has been supportive and loving while giving me space to just be myself. I don’t feel any pressure to interpret the Bible any particular way or to be someone  who  I am not. I attend Bible study regularly: interpretations of scriptures vary greatly but generally are non literal.

I feel a warm sense of community and i deeply enjoy the sacred music.  It just works for me and I believe that there is a spiritual home for everyone - different faith traditions (or collectives of like-minded people).

There are many scientists in my church - that so important to me - for faith and science to be seen as being in dialogue rather than in conflict necessarily. They offer many social justice related volunteer opportunities, which is also important to me.

It is definitely not for everyone and I respect that. [/quote]

By the way my views are rooted in sacred text and I did not make them up out of thin air. As mentioned earlier, my faith tradition tends to be non literal and allow for personal interpretation of scriptures.

1. There is no gender in the spirit (Galatians 3:28)

2. God is love, light and transcends time. space and place.
[God is love' (1 Jn 4:8b, 4:16b); 'God is light' (1 Jn 1:5; Jn 9:5); and 'God is life' (1 Jn 1:2; Jn 14:6)]

3. God shows love and mercy to all.
(Ephesians 2:4-5 ; Isaiah 30:18; Lamentations 3:22-23; Psalm 25:10; James 3:17)

4. God knows the inner thoughts of all and knows our motivations.
(Jeremiah 17:10; 1 Chronicles 28:9)

5. Any thought or action that we carry out that is motivated by selfless love is of God and therefore transcends time and place and will endure after our physical bodies pass away.
(1 Corinthians 13:4-7; 1 Corinthians 13:13; John 15:12; 1; John 4:8; Philippians 2:4;)

6. Everything in this life shall pass but God’s love and mercy endures forever
(Psalm 136:26; John 2:17; Mathew 24:35; Isaiah 40:8)

7. There are many paths to God and there is room for all of us.
(Psalm 25:10; Proverbs 3:6; John 14:2)[/quote]

I don't remember scripture as well as you to cite, so I'm going to use an analogy.

Think of a garbage dump. Within it, a flowering plant has taken hold and blossomed. You have zoomed in on the beauty of this flower and hold your attention there.  However, when you zoom back out and see the entirety, it's all still a big pile of trash.

[/quote]

I can see why you might think that. Humans have certainly made many messes on our astonishing planet .

But if you keep zooming back into space Scientists widely agree that seeing Earth from space is a breathtaking and awe-inspiring sight. It is often described as "beautiful" due to the vibrant azure color of the planet, the playful patterns of clouds, and the stark contrast against the blackness of space. This provides a distinctive perspective on our planet's fragility and interconnectedness, often leading to a profound shift in perspective known as the "overview effect."

"Blue Marble":
The iconic image of Earth from space, often called the "Blue Marble," captures the striking blue hue of our planet, which is primarily due to the reflection of light from the oceans.

Overview Effect:
Many astronauts report experiencing a profound emotional shift upon seeing Earth from space, realizing the interconnectedness of all life on the planet and the need for global stewardship. Researchers have characterized the effect as "a state of awe with self-transcendent qualities, precipitated by a particularly striking visual stimulus". The most prominent common aspects of personally experiencing the Earth from space are appreciation and perception of beauty, unexpected and even overwhelming emotion, and an increased sense of connection to other people and the Earth as a whole.

It sounds very similar to many religious experiences where the everyday mundane illusions of separation from each other and God start to dissipate. [/quote]

What is your point?[/quote]

Thank you for asking. I thought it was clear.

I agree with PP about perspective being important. I extended his or her analogy for zooming out further from a flower to a trash heap. When we zoom out far enough into space then we arrive back at a view of beauty and interconnectedness.

Yes humans are good at using our smarts for destructive and short sighted gains. There is plenty of work for us all to do to help mitigate climate change, reduce cycles of poverty, avert wars, and take up other efforts to protect our planet and each other. However when the focus goes further out we can see how magnificent, unique, and woven together life here on Earth is.

Further, the overview effect described by many scientists sounds very similar in essence to many religious experiences where everyday mundanities fade away and a deep feeling of peace and unity takes hold. [/quote]

I think you missed the overall point which was religion is trash. It had nothing to do with the overall planet or trash generally. It doesn't matter if you find pieces that are salvageable in a belief system, on the whole, all of it is garbage.  [/quote]

This clearly illustrates that one person’s trash is another person’s treasure. [/quote]

Right --- and supposedly, "God" made us this way[/quote]

And since he knows your thoughts and he knows what is going to happen, its all part of his mysterious plan. [/quote]

I personally believe that the divine plan is loving, creative and interactive every step of the way. We have free will.

But I agree the divine plan seems mysterious and the value of seeking heavenly treasures is very hard to quantify.

Matthew 6:19-20: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal"

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