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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
From CNN live updates:

US President Joe Biden called Russian President Vladimir Putin a "pure thug" while speaking at a St. Patrick's Day event Thursday.

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-17-22/index.html

Highly undiplomatic... but perfectly true.[/quote]
He also called him a war criminal yesterday. Telling it like it is.[/quote]

[b]Agree that Putin is a blatant war criminal, but Biden is as well[/b]. Voted for Iraq and Afghanistan wars which whether you like it or not were essentially the same
thing Putin is doing — “the regime is [anti-democracy / nazis] and they have [weapons of mass destruction / biolabs]”. Also has been arming Ukrainian nationalists and sent CIA to train them in their battle against Donbas separatists. Armed the Free Syria Army against Assad and many of the weapons ended up in ISIS hands. Supported bloody Libya coup. Not to mention all the drone strikes under Biden and Obama. Prolific, prolific war criminal just like Putin. [b]Both men will burn in hell because there is nothing more shameful than sowing death and destruction during your time on earth[/b].[/quote]

To be fair, all US presidents have overseen foreign military adventures--covert or otherwise--resulting in death and destruction. As a nation, we were founded through violence and we promote our interests abroad with violence. We are also the world's largest arms dealer, not to mention the country with the most armed citizens (but that's a whole other subject). So Biden is just one more in a long line of presidents who have exerted American power through violent means. [/quote]

Yep.  I guess the founding fathers are war criminals, too, and are roasting in hell right now.[/quote]

And so is Abraham Lincoln.

One key difference between Lincoln and Putin is that Putin waited 30 years after Ukraine's separation from Russia to attempt to pull them back into the fold, while Lincoln to action immediately. But that doesn't change the fact that Lincoln has a lot of blood on his hands -- yet we consider him one of our greatest presidents .. perhaps the greatest of all.

It is interesting that some leaders who have attempted to expand their territory are considered evil, while others are heroes. What is the criteria for determining which expansionist leader is a hero and which is a monster?

[/quote]

You got this the wrong way around - the Confederates were trying to expand their new state, while Lincoln was trying to maintain the status quo land mass of the United States.

Putin is like the Confederates - trying to take what wasn't his to begin with.[/quote]

But Ukraine was once a member state in the USSR. Suppose the Soviets had immediately acted, in 1991, to try to pull Ukraine back into a rump-version of the USSR. Would that have been a "legal" war? If the answer is "yes" to that question, then isn't it the passage of time -- from 1991 to 2022 -- and the fact that Ukraine operated independently during this period, that distinguishes the actions taken by Lincoln from those taken by Putin?[/quote]

NO.  The answer to the question “would that have been a legal war is - NO!  Ukraine voted in a nationwide referendum to affirm the vote in their Rada/Parliament to dissolve their ties with the USSR.  The referendum had something like 84% turnout and 92% approved independence - even on the Crimean Peninsula, more than 50% approved separation.

Ukraine is not some situation in which political representatives voted to secede.  Almost the entire population voted to secede and it followed that secession by negotiations and legal agreements as to the nature of the successor organization (CIS) and status of the Baltic fleet, nukes, etc.

There are no factual circumstances that existed would have justified Russia or the USSR to forcibly take back Ukraine - neither then nor now.

[/quote]

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