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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Zelensky said today that he might be willing to abandon hopes for NATO membership. So as much as the Russian military has underperformed, they’ve potentially done enough to strongarm Zelensky into considering a major compromise.[/quote]

This is the smart move to save his country.

It is a bitter pill to swallow -- having fought a brave fight and pushed back against Putin -- but if Ukraine fights this out to the bitter end there will be nothing left to fight for.

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Abandoning NATO membership means he ultimately lost. [/quote]

Lost what?  They aren't NATO members now - they've been strategic military partners with NATO countries for years (and have the military prowess and defensive weaponry to show for it).[/quote]

Umm … Ukraine has been desperately wanting NATO membership for over a decade. That’s kinda the entire reason this invasion happened in the first place. [/quote]

Umm... no, it kinda isn't.  The reason this invasion happened in the first place is because Putin thinks he's entitled to Ukraine, and that permits him to murder pregnant women and children.  That is why Ukraine wants to be in NATO.  If you think otherwise, then you must think those pregnant women and children deserved to die, too.[/quote]

What the hell are you talking about? Me saying Ukraine wants NATO membership in no way implies I think Russia didn’t provoke this or that Ukrainian women and children deserve to die.

Do you need me to spell it out? Fine. Ukraine wants NATO membership because Russia is a provocative piece of shit. [/quote]

And Putin wants Ukraine to remain outside of NATO because he doesn't trust the West -- and in particular, the United States -- to establish a purely "defensive" military arrangement in Ukraine. I don't think his goals in Ukraine are purely empire building. He is trying to establish a bulwark against Western encroachment. One can argue that this is motivated by pure paranoia -- [b]but would we be nervous if Russia were to begin outfitting Mexico with "defensive" weapons?[/b] Some missile systems can be used for both to defend and to attack.[/quote]

If we had lost the Cold War and Russia had placed missile systems in Mexico, we would be very nervous.
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DP. You seriously think that this is a defensive move by Putin? It's simply astonishing that people are unable to take Putin's words at literal face value. Zelensky is absolutely right that this won't stop in Ukraine. Anyone who thinks otherwise lacks even a cursory understanding of 20th Century geopolitics and how they've bled into 21st Century conflicts. [/quote]

I never said it was defensive. Calm down.[/quote]
Someone upthread wrote [quote]He is trying to establish a bulwark against Western encroachment.[/quote] I'm assuming there are several PPs in this sub-thread.

I think it's interesting that this is turning into a discussion about US morality. I'm a US-born child of immigrants, and I have no delusions about the morality of American international policy. At the same time, I'm an American with a pretty substantial stake in the security of our country. If Putin continues his march westward (and I absolutely think he will should he succeed in taking Ukraine, which he almost certainly will), then it threatens US security. I don't know what the right answer is, but I am fairly certain it will include escalating US military activities.

I am the complete opposite of a hawk/warmonger. I'm just looking at the reality in front of me. I have a couple of colleagues who are Romanian. They see what's happening quite differently than Americans do, because they have a clearer understanding of the geopolitical forces in that part of the world.[/quote]

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