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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]The Azov Battalion is real. Doesn’t mean Putin isn’t a crazy dictator, but it isn’t true that Ukraine has no neo Nazis.[/quote]
Russia has them too.[/quote]

Armed battalions with names and all? [/quote]

Putin has private Nazi-run death squads.  Look up Wagner PMC.  It's led by Putin's friend Dmitri Utkin, a former Spetznaz officer and known neo-Nazi.  Check out Utkin's tattoos - Nazi Reichsadler and SS insignia.  He named his company "Wagner" after Hitler's favorite composer.  Wagner is Russia's dirty work and private "plausible deniability" military operating in Syria, Central African Republic, Mali and many other hot spots.  Wagner currently has hundreds of assassins in Ukraine trying to assassinate the Jewish president of Ukraine, who is the [b]grandson[/b] of Holocaust survivors and who was popularly elected by the supposedly Nazi Ukrainians with solid 73% majority.

[/quote]
Zelensky is a grandson of a communist, a Red Army colonel. [/quote]
Does that make his grandfather not Jewish? Does it change the fact that his grandfather’s father and brothers perished in the Holocaust? What’s your point?[/quote]
Communists tend to be pointedly unreligious, which is exactly why many Jews fled from communist countries. Religion was forbidden in the USSR.  The October Revolution predated WWII.[/quote]

PP, I am not sure why you are making this point.  Zelensky’s grandfather, who was Jewish, fought in World War II with the Soviet army and rose to the level of colonel. He survived - his three brothers and father were killed in the Holocaust.  This is a very common WE2 story - Jewish men often joined the only available opposition to Nazis in some areas - The Red Army. Do you think it says something negative about Zelensky’s grandfather or Zelensky that he did that?

Yes, religion was forbidden in the Soviet Union. Yes, many Jews sought to leave Soviet countries. But, since Ukraine voted overwhelmingly in 1991 to leave the Soviet Union, religion has been an accepted part of Ukrainian life. Particularly since the Maidan, there is broad acceptance of all religions even Islam - among the people and between religious leaders.  Ukrainians who elected Zelensky knew he was Jewish. Since Zelensky became president he has openly spoken about his family’s Jewish background and commemorated Ukraine’s victory over Naziism.

Ukraine, broadly speaking does not have a lot of neo-Nazis, but because of the war in the Donbas early groups like Azov battalion and Right Sector, received support because they were the early groups to use force to resist Russian efforts to keep control of Ukraine by manipulating Ukrainian politicians.  Ukrainians, who were opposed to Russia, saw Right Sector and Azov as the only groups available to support.  As the Ukrainian Army got more organized itself and created a Territorial Defense, it folded Azov into the command structure.  At the time this was seen as a way to moderate neo-Nazi support and control and eventually weed neo-Nazis out.  I think that’s been somewhat successful, and today’s Ukrainian army has no greater a Nazi problem than any other country in Europe.  And certainly not such a Nazi problem that justifies a Russian invasion. [/quote]

Just bumping your excellent explanation, PP. Thank you for taking the time to inform any posters that were unconvinced there are trolls here and on other threads, who wish to derail the conversation and fracture US unity during this conflict.

Also a reminder that you can use the report button any time you suspect that posts are created with the specific goal of spreading lies to confuse readers and deflect blame on the wrong people.

[/quote]

While technically correct, I'm not quite sure why you're using this particular thread of conversation to make that point.  It's completely normal for politicians to overstate their sense belonging to certain groups or causes if they think it will draw in international support.  In this case, the Ukrainian political establishment is motivated to disassociate themselves with the perception of Nazism, wants to associate itself with oppressed group, and would probably love to have Israel more strongly supportive of its cause.  Yes, PP notes that the  Zelensky's story is completely reconcilable, but PP's PP was also completely correct in noting that there's an objective reason to question whether he's "very" Jewish or that the Russian army would be targeting him on religious grounds.

Also, please spare the melodrama.  Just because we're supposed to side with a leader doesn't mean that there's a societal expectation to consider them a sincere or likeable leader.[/quote]

You seem to be saying that Zelensky is “not really Jewish” or “not Jewish enough” or that he is “overstating” that he is Jewish or “just saying he is Jewish to get Israel’s support” or that the “Ukrainian political establishment is associating itself with Zelensky in order to disassociate itself with Naziism”??!!

Wow.  Pretty anti-semitic to judge someone as to whether or not they are Jewish enough, yet at the same time think that that person is Jewish enough that he can call on other Jewish world leaders (cuz you know, Jews stick together and run the world).

Here’s some reality - Zelensky won with something like 70+ percent of the vote precisely because he wasn’t an establishment politician and therefore people believed him when he promised to take on corruption in society.  Your idea that he is some kind of fake Jew installed in power by the elites in order to fake out the world as to the degree of real control Nazis exert over Ukraine is conspiracy nonsense.

BTW, no one is suggesting Russia is targeting because he is Jewish.  People are saying Putin’s description of Ukraine as a country run by Nazis is ridiculous when 70+% voted for a Jewish candidate.

Russia is targeting Zelensky because he is steadfastly defending what the Ukrainian people have fought and voted for from the 1991 vote to leave the USSR through the Orange Revolution through the Maidan through the defense of Donbas and through multiple elections in the past 10 years — a European future.

[/quote]

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