Reply to How often do you think applicants lie about their race?

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Anyone who lies about their race or anything else on a college application or job application or whatever is giving up way more than they're gaining. Why would anyone give up their integrity for ANY reason, let alone one that will make no difference in their future happiness or success?[/quote]

Colleges should not discriminate based on race in the first place.
That's evil.[/quote]

So basically, "I don't like what I perceive someone else to be doing, so I can do whatever I want in response."

That kind of rationale has led to all sorts of evil through the ages.[/quote]

Whereas “others do evil to me but I do nothing in response” only leads to good outcomes for the victims. 🙄[/quote]

Fair point. What I should have said is that you're wrong about colleges discriminating on the basis of race, if you're defining 'discriminating' as deliberate exclusion. There are no evil plans being executed by admissions offices.[/quote]

So discrimination is totally fine if it’s the obvious byproduct of a policy? [/quote]

'Discrimination' is used in different ways by different people and in different situations. If you're using the word to mean deliberate exclusion of a group of people by college admissions offices, then you're wrong. To be more specific, fewer people of one race being admitted to a college as a byproduct of another race being given some preference due to horrific mistreatment historically is not a racist policy. It's the natural outcome in a zero-sum game.

It's moot anyway. Not being admitted to any given college isn't doing anyone any harm. The slightly less selective college they get into is just as capable of giving them the education they need.[/quote]

You are probably not following the Supreme Court case.
College admissions offices are deliberately lowering percentage of a group of people with bullshit insulting scores on kindness courage likability.

It's the 21st century.  We don't need racism in the academic fields.  
[/quote]

Regardless of what SCOTUS decides, what is happening is not 'racism'. For it to be racism, there would have to be hundreds of people in an admissions office colluding to exclude a specific group with every one of them capable of keeping the secret and none of them having the spine to go public. And those admissions offices include people of all races and backgrounds, and have people on staff whose job it is to ensure racism doesn't happen. And actually, it's thousands of people who would have to be keeping the secret, because while Harvard and UNC are named in lawsuits, the same thing is happening at all universities. Affirmative action may be found to be unconstitutional by this very biased court, but it is not a racist policy.[/quote]

It is absolutely possible, and even probable, that what we are seeing is racism. Yes, hundreds of people in admissions offices can definitely have a racist bias against Asians. We see it here in this forum all the time - the attitude that Asians are just boring grade-grubbers and exam-crammers. Admissions officers are very much in the DCUM demographic and I venture to guess that they think the same way.

Furthermore, you are ignoring unconscious bias and systemic racism. Don't you believe those are actual things? I bet that if you do, you think they only operate against blacks, but it is very obvious they operate against Asians in this case.

Last but not least, the courts have found in other cases that it [i]doesn't even matter[/i] if there isn't a conscious, racist conspiracy. If your practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on a minority even though your rules are formally race-neutral then you are discriminating by race and that is wrong. And there is no doubt that current admissions practices have a disproportionately adverse effect on Asians.[/quote]

Your knowledge of the composition of admissions staffs is way off base. It is not at all similar to the DCUM crowd, with deliberate efforts to choose a very diverse group. Many of them are recent grads of the school where they work and care deeply about making sure it maintains the excellence they love so much that they want to try to convince others to attend.[/quote]

They are mentally and ideologically exactly the same as the DCUM crowd - educated urban liberals. And like the DCUM crowd, they consider some types of "diversity" better than others. For whatever reason, black diversity is held to improve the "excellence" of these schools, but Asian diversity does not contribute to the "excellence" of these schools.[/quote]

I'm confused how you can say that when 23.7% of Harvard freshman who report only one race are Asian, but only 6.1% of the US population is Asian. That's almost four times the representation in the general population and seems to value Asian diversity pretty highly. This is as contrasted with blacks, who make up 10.1% of the freshmen and 13.6% of the general population. They seem to be valued less than they ought to be.[/quote]

Jews are 20-25% of Harvard but 2% of the population

So let’s not get into the “over representation” sweepstakes as a cudgel against Asians

[/quote]

10% of Harvard's undergraduate population is Jewish.[/quote]

Source? I've seen higher numbers.

Even at 10% that's a massive overrepresentation don't you think?[/quote]

Source is Hillel International. Graduate enrollment is much higher. https://www.hillel.org/college/harvard-university/

I don't think it's a massive overrepresentation. Jews, in general, value education, so they likely apply at a higher rate than many other groups. For many years there were quotas for Jews at Harvard (and many other Ivys). Other private schools that are not as selective as Harvard have a much higher percentage of Jews than their population such as Tulane (42%), GW (27%), WashU (26%), Ithaca (21%), American (20%), Lehigh (17%). It's not that unusual.[/quote]

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