Reply to Would you take Tufts, Emory, Wash U over UVA?

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]William and Mary is probably more similar in size and feel to Washington University, Tufts, and Emory if that is what he wants.  UVA is great if he wants a larger school, different experience.  Perhaps schools like Duke, Columbia, Princeton, etc. would provide more opportunities, but I'm not convinced your private alternatives will.  Perhaps focus on that level as reach.  [/quote]

This kind of vague advice is why students fall for the “prestige” factor that may or may not matter for them personally.

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It made sense to me.  They were just saying any difference in prestige wouldn't make much difference between the schools mentioned.  It might for schools like Duke and Columbia.[/quote]
I agree giving up in-state tuition at UVA means DC got into a top 10 school. UNless DC qualifies for significant financial aid. Also, Tufts isn't as good as UVA or the others, they just happen to be just as selective but academics wise the others are better. [/quote]

What about 11? Seriously though, where does the arbitrary line exist?[/quote]

Good question.  All anyone can really tell you is their opinion.  If I had to pay close to full vs. in-state for UVA or W&M and objective was perhaps law school, I'd say I'd find it hard not to send them to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, then probably Columbia, Duke, Brown, Dartmouth, Penn, perhaps Williams, Amherst, and maybe Rice.  If you are talking science, it would clearly open up MIT and Caltech.  Most of these are extremely tough admits.   So that is about 14 or so tops.  Many would add Chicago.  I'd draw the line before Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, Tufts, Emory, Wash U, etc.  This is all based on my situation and if I was fortunate enough to have a kid with those options.

It is clear that HYPS etc. do have significantly higher representation at elite law schools than UVA or W&M.  I recall seeing that about 25% of Yale law students are from Harvard and Yale, and remaining Ivy League plus Stanford take it to 50% plus.  But you have to consider that they probably had stellar SATs and would also get stellar LSATs.  [/quote]

Your numbers are wrong, especially at Harvard which is a very large law school.  Ivy League representation is way less than 50 percent.  [/quote]

This was the article I remember seeing on Yale.  I don't know about Harvard, but I would still think Ivy representation is very high compared to undergraduate population.

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2011/04/18/up-close-tracing-the-elite-law-cycle/ [/quote]

I have never seen Harvard put numbers on it.  Just a list of institutions represented:  https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/undergraduate-colleges/
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Yale is in a league of its own.  Also, your article is a little dated.  [/quote]

At least I'm offering real data points.  Here is a more recent view of Yale Law enrollment by undergraduate institutions from 2015.  Of the schools mentioned, Tufts had 1, Washington University had 7, Emory had 4, UVA had 6, and W&M had 3.

In comparison, Yale had 69, Harvard had 65, Princeton had 37, Columbia had 30, Brown had 22, Dartmouth 19, Amherst 18, Penn 17, Stanford 16, Berkeley 16,  and Williams and Duke 13.[/quote]

Forgot to add the link:  http://bulletin.printer.yale.edu/pdffiles/law.pdf[/quote]

So Yale Law is just one data point, but it is a benchmark for prestige in law and here is how this breaks down.  Ivy League graduates comprise 41% of Yale Law enrollment.  4.5 Ivy graduates per 1,000 in undergraduate enrollment end up at Yale Law.  If you compare this to UVA graduates, an Ivy graduate (adjusting for undergraduate enrollment) is over 12X as likely to end up at Yale Law.  An Ivy graduate is 7.4X more likely than a WashU/Tufts/Emory graduate to end up at Yale Law.    There is a lot of variation.  A Yale grad is 34X more likely to end up at Yale Law than a UVA grad.  A Cornell grad is only 1.6X as likely to end up at Yale Law.  But the next lowest Ivy, Penn, is 5X as likely as a UVA grad.  Of the three private schools mentioned by the OP, WashU is the clear leader.  [b]Its graduates are 2.5X as likely[/b] to end up at Yale Law as a UVA graduate.  Emory does a bit better and Tufts is worse.

As someone mentioned, Yale Law is a special case, so take this with a grain of salt, but it is actual data and it probably does say something about elite law admissions.[/quote]

Your calculation is wrong. You need the # of applicants to YLS per school to make that determination. You appeared to be using a wrong assumption based on the total undergraduate population.[/quote]

No.  A graduate of WashU is 2.5X as likely to end up at WashU as a UVA graduate based on the data available in the Yale Law bulletin.  7 Yale Law students from an undergraduate population of 7,540 for Wash U vs 6 Yale Law students from an undergraduate population of 16,331 for UVA.

You are getting at percentage of applicants admitted by school, which is a valid, but different point.  There is no public data on the number of applicants by school, so that is unknowable.

I actually don't see the difference between Wash U and UVA as that significant.  When you get Princeton, for instance, a Princeton graduate is 19X as likely to end up at Yale Law, and I definitely think that is significant given the desirability of Yale Law.

As I said earlier, the average WashU graduate taking the LSAT scored several points higher than the average UVA graduate.  That likely has nothing to do with the quality of education and everything to do with the standardized test taking ability of the average LSAT taker from those schools.   So a kid choosing between UVA an WashU would probably score the same on the LSAT regardless of where they decided to go.  My opinion is that their choice between WashU and UVA would not make a significant difference in their admission odds at Yale Law.  Going to Princeton (if they could get admitted) would make a difference.[/quote]

You can't use the total undergraduate population to calculate admission rate. You must use the # of admitted divided by [b]the # of applicants[/b] from that school.

Say, Washington U has 1000 students. 500 applied for YLS and 10 got in. That would be 2% admission rate. UVA has 2500 students. 100 applied for YLS and 10 got in. That would be a 10% admission rate. By your calculation, Washington U graduates would be 2.5 x likely to get in.
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+1 PP makes a great case for basic statistics being a required class for everyone. Holy shit, I can't with the stupidity.[/quote]

It has nothing to do with statistics.  It was a matter of switching what is being measured.  One was talking about admission rate and the other was simply talking about the percentage of graduates that "end up" at Yale.  If someone has actual admission rates it would be great, but I don't think they are available.[/quote]

The percentage of graduates that "end up" at Yale Law School doesn't tell you one school's graduate is 2.5 x likely to get in Yale. Again you have to know the percentage of graduates that apply to Yale Law School to make that determination.[/quote]

It tells you a Washington U graduate is 2.5X as likely to end up at Yale Law school, as stated.  If someone told you there were 50X more graduates from one school than another school at Goldman Sachs, would you not think that data point is significant given Goldman Sachs is one of the most desirable destinations in finance?  Yale Law is one of the most desirable destinations for law school, is it not?[/quote]

Ideally, we'd like to know the acceptance rate by school when the applicants have exactly the same LSAT and GPA.  That way we could better control variables and isolate the impact of school reputation, if any.  My guess is only Yale Law has that data in this case and they aren't sharing it.  So we are left with other data points.[/quote]

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