Reply to Two Jews (Peter Beinart and Jon Stewart) discuss Israel

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Beinart is also the editor of Jewish Currents magazine, which is a super-lefty socialist publication. Still an interesting conversation, but I wouldn't say that either of them are representative of mainstream American Jews.[/quote]
A lot of American Jews are lefties. Not sure why you don’t think these views are representative of a LOT of people. [/quote]
American Jews have been trending to the political right since October 7, largely over the far-left's anti-Israel stance. There is, of course, room to be horrified by the starvation in Gaza and oppose Netanyahu's government. I just don't think that Beinart and Stewart are good spokespeople to do that, because they aren't representative of mainstream American Jewish views (largely), so it's hard to take them seriously on this serious issue. I will listen to Jon Stewart all day long when he's talking about support for 9/11 first responders, or another subject that he is clearly passionate about and can speak with authority. But he's used his Judaism as the butt of a joke so often that when he invokes his Judaism for something serious, like Israel-Gaza, it just doesn't feel sincere.[/quote]
No, the American Jews that YOU associate with have become more right wing. Most of my Jewish friends are anti bibi and able to recognize that Israel is committing genocide.

These are not niche views. Maybe you need to chat with more Jews.[/quote]

He doesn't want to. He wants to stick his head in the sand and "just be Jewish" because he secretly likes what Bibi is doing. That's why he is on this thread protesting when sane people (Jewish or not) are condemning what is happening in Gaza right now. [/quote]

Ok...anyone can say they know what is going on in someone's head. I'll play--you like horses, but are too afraid to ride them! I know what you are thinking!

But regardless, people don't HAVE to agree with you that Israel needs to be destroyed. Their not agree with you is not a gotcha we have to be concerned about.[/quote]

I LOVE how you're showing your true colors the more you post. Nowhere did anyone say in this entire thread that Israel needs to be destroyed. No one!!! [b]You took the criticism of what Bibi is doing as "Israel needs to be destroyed."[/b] Nowhere did Beinart or Stewart call for that either. I am (as are many others) saying Isral needs to stop killing and starving innocent children and people in Gaza. To you, those things are the same. The only way for Israel to exist is to destroy Gaza and all of the people living there. You are a terrible human. [/quote]
Yup, this. They can't separate the man from his actions. [/quote]

OK, Netanyahu will not be around forever, so he will be gone, and Israel will continue in the form it is. Same borders, same type of govt. But that is not what you want. So you are discussing the "man", but he is not your issue[/quote]

well- it is a religious ethnostate- most Americans believe in a separation of Church and State. None of our other allies are  religious ethnostates and there are certainly not weird laws about how some citizens (secular jews) have to be prepared to lay down their lives and serve in the armed forces while other groups need to be paid tax moneys to rock back and forth and read books.  the whole structure looks ----weird and not a natural fit for what most Americans consider normal behavior.

also our country has a huge debt problem so a country where there is enough money to pay for huge families to sit around doing nothing but read religious books and pray doesn't need my hard earned cash to support it. this is a democracy and I can use my voice to persuade more and more of my fellow american citizens to agree with me and vote for politicians who spend out tax mosey right here in the USA. Right  now this is not US policy but in the 1950s it was US policy that Taiwan was China and the PRC was an illegitimate nation, Americans are within our rights to change minds and you are within your rights to argue back. but you can't tell someone that they don't have the right to say that your religious ethnostate is weird like Iran and Saudi Arabia and all the other weird a$$ religious republics out there and we shouldn't have to pay you any money to exist.   lots of cultures disappear-  why should I care if there are no more hottentots or Israelis  or liberians, this isn't my problem.  I'm not white, my ancestors don't owe you anything. [/quote]

Your opinion has been noted. The first 1000+ times you and your friends have stated it. The issue is that you pummel everyone with your opinion day in and day out every minute of the day, so this conveys no one is allowed to disagree with you. The U.S. is not allowed to disagree with you. So what now?[/quote]

DP, pummel? Explain to me why I should support Israel right now with the money I pay for taxes? [/quote]
They are our ally in a region where we have few allies. They are a democracy (an imperfect one, but still). Should we be using our relationship with Israel to exert more pressure on them to negotiate a ceasefire? Yes. Should we cut off all aid and [b]let Iran overrun the region[/b] with proxy terrorism? No.[/quote]

Palestinian movement supporters are ok with this along as they get their state (nation). Even the ones who live here in the U.S. are ok with this. They were ok with Trump winning to teach that uppity black lady a lesson for not doing their bidding. [/quote]

Yawn. The islamophobe racists have entered the chat. [/quote]

It is Jews this Jews that Jews must do this on this site all day long but no one can ever say a thing about Muslims? So, no, there is no "phobia". And when did Muslims become a "race"?

[/quote]

Jews have no more right to their state than the Muslims do. You just have a lot more support from the West because of Islamophobia.[/quote]

Ok, so you acknowledge they have a right to their state then, great! Jews can have their states, Muslims can have theirs.

No one is irrationally scared of Islam. Some have legitimate reasons to be concerned with its principles. Just because a Muslim doesn't get what he wants doesn't mean that there is Islamophobia going on. A Muslim not getting what he wants is not always an emergency. Palestinians not getting what they want (a state) is not inherently a crisis or emergency.[/quote]

HAHAHAHA do you even read yourself? Jews not getting what they want is fine by me. Again, you dont have a right to that land any more than Palestinians do. You were just told you do for so long that you actually believe it. You believe you're better than the Muslims who have lived there just as long. You believe that you can throw them out of their homes, strave and kill them because why? Because you're Jewish? [/quote]

I am not Jewish.

The country of Israel exists now. It is not going to disappear into thin air because you and friends are really really mad and emotional and want it to go away. If you want it to go away, start a war, that is all you can do. But spending all day on the internet telling us you are really really mad and that Jews are awful and evil and entitled isn't going to do it. [/quote]

One, you 100% are Jewish.

Two, I never said that I wanted the state of Israel to disappear. I want Jews to stop killing innocent children and civilians by the thousands so they can have the land that they have no more claim to than Palestinians. The fact that you are not emotional about genocide being committed in Gaza currently is all I need to know. You are the one who wants war. I want the war to stop and for Jews and Palestinians to stop killing each other. You are not special.[/quote]

Emotionalism doesn't do anything. If you want to war to stop ask the Palestinian side to stop fighting. It takes two to tango. Just cause you want Israel to stop first doesn't mean it has to happen. You are not getting it. Just because Palestinians want something, doesn't mean it has to happen just because they utter a desire. You have to fight for what you want, that is life. They started a war, let them finish it.

I am not Jewish. Why do you insist on that. How does that bolster anything you say? I actually don't see a lot of Jewish people posting on this topic on this website. There isn't much to say really. The war is happening, what are there words going to do?[/quote]

[b]Israel has all of the power and support from the West.[/b] Israel has been systematically oppressing Palestinians for decades. Israel has been resettling Palestinians in the West Bank for decades. Israel and only Israel has killed 50,000 since October 7. You are dishonest, immoral, and evil. I have no room for people like you in my life and hope the same faith for you that you wish for Palestinians. Perhaps you'd be singing a different tune if your child was wounded, starving or dead.[/quote]

Well they made a good choice then. Choices have consequences. Palestinian could.choose to align with Israel and the West. [/quote]

So that you can have the land that you want? Eff right off. That's ok. Your reckoning is coming. I'm sure you fancy yourself a religious person. You're just a nazi who believes himself the superior race.[/quote]

Ok, so acting as a prophet of the future makes you feel better...just more magical thinking, I think it, I want it, so it will happen!

I don't live in Israel or know anyone there so i.do don't "want" anything. It is just that Israel does exist. Just like China exists, Iran exists. Bolivia exists. Your wanting it not to exist, who cares. [/quote]

Palestinians exist. They aren't going anywhere. They deserve their own country just like Jews.[/quote]

Disagree. Jews (nor anyone) deserve "their own country."

Actual peace is not achieve in religious or ethno-nationalist states (like Israel). People have to learn to live together. Creating Israel was a monumental mistake. 
[/quote]

Not everyone thinks it was a mistake. In any event that doesn't matter now, it exists. [b]If you don’t want it to that's on you. [/b]You figure out a way to get rid of it. What are words on the internet going to do?[/quote]

The parties, left on the course they are on, are going to keep killing one another in abhorrent numbers, which is catastrophic but will never affect the PP. So this is an odd thing to say to someone. If you want peace and security for Jewish people, you have to engage seriously with the fact that what has been done is not working to achieve that. [/quote]

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