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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]How inconvenient that there were maps of a "country that didn't exist until it was created by Stalin" all the way back in 1660.

[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Carte_d%27Ukranie_by_Beauplan%2C_Guillaume_Le_Vasseur_%2816..-1673%29%2C_cartographer.jpg[/img]

When the propaganda is so easily destroyed, it's time to stop using it.[/quote]

When your most recent argument is from 1660, it's time to stop using it too. [/quote]

So the funny part is that either way you slice it (pre-Stalin / post-Stalin), Ukraine existed as either a State or self-governing authority - [b]unlike Russia.  [/b]

Moscow was ruled by and paid tribute to the Mongols for a few hundred years and was not the heart of the Russian Empire.  Depending on the argument made, either Novogorod or Kiev is techncially the actual birthcity of the Rus empire.

Post-Stalin, Stalin's holodomor murdered millions in and around Ukraine through starvation when USSR troops denied food to starving people; providing the ability for Russians to re-populate Crimea, among other locations.

In other words, bad for Russian propaganda to reference maps.[/quote]

Maps won't lead you very far you know.  Poland, Romania and Hungary may have a few things to say about that, wouldn't they? Is Ukraine on whatever map the same thing that exists today?  Playing around with maps didn't do jack for Palestinians, for instance, or for Armenians who are currently content with a small rump state compared to what Greater Armenia once was.

You look at Kievan Rus and you see the Kievan part, others may see the Rus part.  Does it really matter? What has the past glory ever done for the Cherokees, for instance? Things....shift.  And rarely voluntarily!

I am continually amused by the effortless substitution of USSR/Russia when it works for people's arguments. Don't you think USSR troops included Ukrainians?  I mean, for Stalin's crime, shouldn't you take it up with Georgia? Let alone an inconvenient fact that the famine killed nearly as many Kazakhs as it did Ukrainians yet Ukraine managed to make it all about themselves. [/quote]

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