Reply to Consensus world view of TOP 5/6 UK University Rankings (Prestige/Research)

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I can’t really speak to the debate on rankings, but I have a kids that is a senior in the JDP program at WM/StA.

I get the impression that while WM kids compete for a spot in the JDP after acceptance to WM, it’s the opposite at StA. There, the JDP is treated as a first semester away option for the more competitive majors.

I will also add that there is a high level of academic rigor. My husband and I went to great schools (UVA) and my daughter’s workload at WM was tougher on than anything I remember at UVA. She still did quite well first year (3.9) and said it was hard, buy not very hard.

Her first semester at StA was very hard. The writing, research and grade expectations were quite different. Essays that would be easy As at WM were C+ to Bs there. She learned to write A papers there but it was an adjustment, both in terms of the writing style, level of effort, and depth of research.

Anyway I am glad she went there because her writing and research skills improved quite a bit. And I understand if you go there outright, your first two years of grades count in terms of getting the credits to move into honors, but do not count towards their equivalent of a GPA.

All this to stay that UK school have very different expectations and grading systems compared to US schools and it is quite an adjustment. I recommend anyone considering these schools also consider if their kid is ready for that adjustment on top of the adjustment of college generally. [/quote]

Great points. Which one off the JDPs was she in? Obviously different majors will have different requirements. The advantage of the sub honors years is that while the grading is much harder than the typical US essay review, those grades do not count for GPA. Only  the 3rd and 4th year grades will count. You still have to pass. But you can pass with a 7/20. This gives a lot of American kids the time to adjust to the tougher grading and writing requirements before getting to the 3rd year.[/quote]

She is/was in IR (she is back at WM).  Unfortunately for the JDP, those sub-honors classes DO count toward the WM GPA, so I guess in that way, the program is harder. You also have to essentially do first year twice (once at each school).

I believe 7/20 is pass, but you cannot do 7/20 in all classes and expect to pass to honors. I believe the minimum credits mean your actual grades need to be a bit higher (11/20?). But don’t quote me, as my kids was may more focused on how it all translates back to WM. [/quote]

yes I didn’t think about the JDP program GPA counting in the first two years. That makes sense.

As for St Andrews, Honors years are still 7/20 to pass. A 10 is equivalent to a 2:2. 13 is s 2:1 and >16 = First.
Between 7 and 10 you still pass your Honours modules, but with a third.[/quote]
I wonder how US schools evaluate their 0 to 20 GPA for grad school purposes in the US?[/quote]

Any of the top 50 schools in the US understand the grading system. Specially from  St Andrews given the fact that every year, about 500 Americans graduate from StA and 1/3 or so end up going to grad school in the US at t50 schools. They all know and understand the 0-20 grading where a 10 is equivalent to a B. The grading at StA and in the UK in general is much tougher than in the US.

My son graduated from St Andrews in History and then went to LSE for grad school. He said the grading at St Andrews was much tougher than at LSE. Having a minor mistake on citations at St Andrews got you a few points of a 4000 word paper. At LSE, minor citations errors were simply ignored.[/quote]

Yes, St Andrews grading tends to be tough, especially in years 1 & 2.   A 10 is more like a C-, at least using the conversion scale at W&M which participates in a joint degree program with St Andrews.  Here is the conversion chart:

St Andrews Numeric Grade	William & Mary Letter Grade	Quality Points (W&M)	Meaning
15.5 to 20	        A	4.0	Excellent
14.5 to 15.4	A-	3.7	 
13.9 to 14.4	B+	3.3	 
13.1 to 13.8	B	3.0	Good
12.3 to 13.0	B-	2.7	 
11.0 to 12.2	C+	2.3	 
10.5 to 10.9	C	2.0	Satisfactory
9.0 to 10.4	C-	1.7	 
8.0 to 8.9	        D+	1.3	Minimal Pass
7.5 to 7.9	        D	1.0	 
7.0 to 7.4	        D-	0.7	 
0 to 6.9	        F	0.0	Fail

[/quote]

As the PP said, this conversation table is WAY OFF. I have had a nephew and a niece graduating from the Joint program. And they both said a 10 at St Andrews was equivalent to a B at William & Mary. Thye breezed through B’s and almost always had A’s at WM while at St A to get a 13 was brutal.[/quote]

Sorry to disappoint you but nephew and niece fibbed a little.  Here is the source for the table - https://catalog.wm.edu/content.php?catoid=28&navoid=4437#System_of_Grading .   Had a kid in the program so very familiar with how the conversion table impacts GPA.  [/quote]

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