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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Well Stephen Hawking rejects argument #1 - 3 and arguably #6.  He says there is no need for God in the current understanding of the origin of the Universe.

The way I think about it is this:  Suppose the only thing that exists, pre-universe, is the possibility of a universe.  Let's say that there is a 1 in infinity minus one chance that there will be a universe.  Fortunately, there are infinite opportunities for a universe to happen, so a universe happens.  (This all takes place when there's no time either, but let's not try to bend our mind around that.)  Let's say that unlike our universe, the universe that happens is one in which fundamental truths about our universe to not hold true.  Instead of E = MC^2, for example let’s say in this universe E=MC^3.  I have no idea what that would specifically mean, but I understand it that fundamentally messing with the laws of the universe would make it unstable, in which case it collapses on itself we’re back to the no universe state with nothing but the possibility of another universe.  But again, we have infinite chances, so another universe inevitably happens.  Maybe that’s our universe, or maybe it takes infinity minus one tries to get to our universe, but eventually you get a stable universe, and here we are.

So that gets rid of the design argument.
[/quote]

this is so stupid.  E=mc^3 isn't even dimensionally correct.  What idiocy!    And the odds calculation reminds me of the high school teacher who said the odds that the LHC would create a black hole that devours the universe is 50/50.  What an uninformed attempt at a calculation of odd!

What are you, a lawyer or something?[/quote]

Not the PP, but...in a thread suffused with sophistry and sloppy logic, way to nit-pick there.  My guess is that you're a theist, but probably have a science background, and are dismayed at the arguments your side's offered up, so you thought you'd take out your frustrations on PP.

Anyway, it was pretty damned obvious what the point was:  a universe where the Planck constant was 7.5 might not be a viable one.  No reason to get worked up over what was actually a valid point.  I'm guessing you have no response to the actual point made, though, otherwise you'd have made it by now.[/quote]

nope.  not a theist.  Just a science teacher who is horrified that somebody, trying to defend science or use science in an argument, would use something in his argument that you learn is stupid during the first day of class in any science course beyond the elementary level.  I guess this person must have taken science at some point, or he wouldn't be so enamored of it.  It is frustrating and an embarrassment to my profession that he learned so little.  (I hope it is not a she!)[/quote]

I am not sure who is who in this catfight, but I just want to say that in M Theory, there may be as many as 10^500 universes, each with it s own physical laws.  Given that, the possibility of a different planck constant or an exponentially different relationship between matter and energy is not improbable.  10^500 could contain a lot of variation.[/quote]

A different value of the planck constant is certainly possible and even probable.  E=mc^3 can not happen in any universe.  A pound will never be a meter.  They measure different things.  The units on both sides of an equation always have to be the same or the equation is just silly.  (sorry, I just can not help myself...  am I really more offensive than the grammar and spelling police that haunt DCUM?)[/quote]No that is not true. They are postulating universes with entirely different sets of rules. I can see why this is strange but it is not impossible. [/quote]

Here is a paper on possible alternate universes.  Level IV are the ones in which different fundamental mathematical equations govern them.  http://space.mit.edu/home/tegmark/multiverse.pdf

It may incidentally provide some interesting questions for people considering religion, as you consider the possibility of alternate copies of "you" who all lived identical lives up until some point where some copies of you did a good thing, and others a bad thing.[/quote]

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