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[quote=Muslima][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=jsteele][quote=Anonymous]I am as liberal as you can get, and [b]I do not defend Islam[/b].  I agree with Sam Harris that Islam is the mother lode of bad ideas.  No matter how you turn it, the basic principles of Islam are not those of a tolerant religion.

[b]I don't defend fundamentalist Christianity[/b] either.  Both religions have, at their very base, very bad ideas.  That doesn't mean that you can't water them down, edit them or ignore the ideas/commandments that you don't like and consider yourself a member of that religion.

What it does mean is that, with very little effort, you can find in both religious texts plenty of justification to enslave, murder or obliterate anyone that disrespects you.[/quote]

Why do you qualify Christianity in a manner that you don't for Islam?
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I'm not that poster, but I could have written that post. I think fundamentalist Christianity is intolerant in a way that's inconsistent with a straight reading of the gospels. Jesus never talked about homosexuals, he encouraged Martha to leave the kitchen and come hear his teachings, and so on. Fundamentalist Christianity relies on Old Testament attitudes towards women and gays that I consider the gospels to have abandoned at the same time they abandoned dietary laws. Also, the gospels are all about avoiding war, loving your enemy, and so on. I've read the Quran from front to back (in translation, but no help for that), and I saw very different messages about the umma versus everybody else.[/quote]

I guess I'll add what I see as problematic about Islam. I'm still thinking about this, but at the moment my concerns have little to do with banning religious expression like the niqab, and little to do with divorce or other laws, if that's what people freely decide to live by.

[b]Instead it's this idea of theocracy: that a good Muslim needs to live by sharia law, and for that you need a Muslim government. Wanting to implement sharia law opens the door to theocracies, and there is nothing good about theocracies IMO.[/b] The problem with the CH assassinations was partly a reaction to bigotry, poverty, and the rest. But the CH attack was also based partly this idea that France's secular values are meritless just because they're not sharia law. (Along with the romanticism of a caliphate that never existed like they think it did, but that's a digression.) Of course, Christianity had horrible theocracies for much of history, but the Enlightenment saw a move towards taking the "render unto Caesar..." line as calling for a separation of church and state, and you saw this 200 years ago in the US constitution, even if we're still fighting conservatives for gay marriage.

I know that millions of Muslims area already there, and that they appreciate democracy and secular values. But the caliphate/theocracy/caliphate idea persists, and whatever you think of religious expression like the niqab, the idea that there's only one valid form of government, and that's a theocracy with sharia law, seems pernicious to me. I can't remember what's in the Quran about establishing an Islamic government, apart from various elements of sharia law itself. So I guess that's my next line of inquiry as I think about this.[/quote]

That' s not true, Muslims are not required to live under shariah law, they are required to follow the law of the land they live in I-e , if you live in America, you have to follow the laws of  America!

As for this thread,  I consider myself a Liberal Muslim, wonder what that says about me .....
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