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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Anyone who thinks this is a good idea has never served in a US Army Armored Corps.

Abrams are [i]incredibly[/i] maintenance intensive systems. And they consume huge amounts of fuel. And presumably all of the current tech within them will have to be removed - everything from the armor, comms, TA and FC equipment. Basically we’ll be sending them functional hulls with operable main guns and little else. And the power unit will be totally unfamiliar to people who come from a knowledge base centered around diesel engines. Turbo shaft engines are totally alien to folks who are used to pistons and fuel injectors.

We can spare the tanks of course, we have over 3,000 M1’s sitting in storage in the California desert. But what we’d be sending them won’t be a game changing weapon system.

I never crewed in an Abrams, I was in Bradley’s. But we operated with Abrams in combined cavalry/armor units pretty often, and it will be interesting to see how 40 year old M1’s do in a European theater. I’ve only seen them in deserts- a place they were not initially designed for. They were actually created to fight of the flat farmlands of Western Europe, and Ukraine is a pretty reasonable facsimile of that terrain. So we’ll finally get to see if our 80’s era tanks can hack it in the theater they were designed for.

Something interesting I noticed - this article just says “tanks”. Nothing else? No bridging gear? No mine clearing? No extraction units? No lowboy haulers? No trucks? No fuelers? Armor doesn’t go to war all by itself. Tanks don’t operate very long without support equipment and support vehicles. And there’s no mention of that. I’d like to believe that’s just sloppy journalism, but nothing would surprise me these days. But if they just sent tanks, that’s a huge oversight. And it’s an indication that the White House isn’t listening to the Pentagon.  [/quote]

WIth due respect, you are woefully wrong here.

First off, the US is sending recovery vehicles along with the Abrams.  Second, already staged and ready in Europe are U.S. military repair, maintnance, and service depots in Germany and now Poland (with ample spare parts).  Third, you failed to mention Abrams have a turbine engine (just like the Russian T-64, while the '62, the 72, and the T-80 use diesels, as does the Leopard).  The Abrams turbine runs not only on JP 4, but regular gas and a variety of other fuels.

But that is not even relevant, since tanks never drive long distances on their own in Europe; they are transported by rail to a railhead near the front (this is why the ground lines of communication are so crucial in this war).

The most surprising thing lacking in your post is lack of knowledge of the reality on the ground in Ukraine: they already have over 1000 tanks:  a mix of mostly T-72s of various versions, T-62, a few T-64s, and some captured T-80s.  The token US and German tanks might seem small, but the German decision unlocks Leopard donations from half a dozen other countries, totaling close to 300 Leopards - no small number (especially considering Western tanks easily demolished T-72s in combat in Iraq, while suffering insignificant loses).  Obvioulsy Ukrainian's 1000  T-72 tanks are equal to Russian T-72 (they came from the exact same factories).

Look up the Wiki on the Bradley fighting vehicle you trained on:  even though it was only supposed to "follow behind" the Abrams as a mere troop carrier, Wiki's source states the Bradley destroyed even more T-72s than the Abrams.  On the ground in Ukraine, all western weapons have proven vastly supperior to what the Russians currently possess.  It is not even close.  Western tanks are a big deal.  A counter offensive is comming, and then you will see.

The [/quote]

This PP is on the mark, particularly w/ respect to the fact that the US donation of M1s unlocks donations from many other countries, which adds up to a significant tank capability with associated logistics and parts and repair network, (which doesn’t really exist on the same scale for the M1 in Europe, although the US does have itself M1 capability in Europe).

Also - don’t forget the *fantastic* Ukrainian rail service. They have done an incredible job getting railway tracks and stations back up and running and they will ensure the tanks get to the front.

As for Russian tanks - yes, they have a lot but they have been poorly maintained and the Russians have and can continue to mobilize large numbers of  troops, they have been completely unable to train and equip them. Even Russian soldiers themselves complain that they are simply been thrown into the meat grinder.

Factor in the reach of HIMARs and excellent intelligence about supply depots and rail/road use, and the Russians are facing a grim year.   And, IMO, Ukraine is likely to get ATACMS (call for which just supported by bipartisan US senators) which would enable Ukraine to hit all Russian occupied territory, including Crimea.  And the discussion is opening for US F-17s and French Mistrals.

Russia cannot and will not win this war; at best they can hope for ceasefire and frozen conflict, which, frankly, would be highly useful for them but hopefully the western allies like FR, US and FRG won’t fall for peace at that price (certainly the Balts, the Poles and the Finns won’t).

BTW, could we stop talking about Ukrainians like they’re idiots comparable to US recruits who train for a year on something? The entire population is highly motivated and highly educated. Prior to the war there were tons of UKR IT people working for major American tech and other companies. Ukrainians have been able to code new systems to integrate incoming intelligence and target extremely quickly.  Prior to the war, UKR was a major arms manufacturer. They had a tank factory in Kharkiv for decades, for example, and in Lviv since 2019, and continue to build and innovate in the military space. You PPs above who think the US is using stupid UKR forces to test out new weapon systems have it backwards. Ukraine is improving and improvising systems in ways that the US and NATO never imagined.  At the end of this war, Ukraine is going to be the best prepared NATO fighting force in all of Europe - having used practically every type of weapon from every NATO country for reals in battle. [/quote]

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