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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]I think it's offensive to all women when a man can claim that he is a woman, even though he clearly is not[/quote]

It's not my intention to attack you at all, because I can honestly see why you'd say that,  I do see your point, but your post reminded me of my own majorly minority opinion...

In contrast, I personally think it's offensive when someone has an opinion about anyone else's gender identity. Only the person living in the brain and body knows their own experiences so I would never be able to say someone else is "clearly" anything other than what they say they are. The gender identity spectrum is too complicated for that and about more than just what parts someone has. [/quote]

I don't intend to attack you either.

Why are people allowed to have 'opinions' on their gender identity. It's pretty binary (not talking about hermaphrodites). I live in my own body and know my own experiences. I say I am Rasputin. Do you accept this? If not why do you accept Bruce being Belinda?[/quote]

I welcome this sort of civil discussion on what I consider an interesting and important topic.

Well, because I don't believe that gender identity is at all binary. I don't actually believe in two genders; I think evidence from societies other than our own suggests that that's an incomplete and overly limiting standard that we have because it's been ingrained in our culture. Men and women obviously exist, but as far as I'm concerned and aware so does basically an entire 'color wheel' of sorts of shades of other gender identities that are equally as legitimate.

Regarding Rasputin, first of all regardless of what I believe and mentally accept, in almost all cases I will at a minimum address people as they wish me to so if this is a genuine part of your identity not hyperbole to make a point I would absolutely call you by that name.

In terms of what I would accept of your identity... my understanding of time is such that I don't believe you can be THAT Rasputin exactly; he lived and died long ago in a different society. He was a specific individual and that specific identity has already been claimed. No two people are completely identical, as I know he never made a clone. That said, you could definitely be A Rasputin or even a reincarnation or regeneration OF Rasputin...but existing in your time and place instead of the one he originally lived in has made you fundamentally different from the original. You know your experiences. If you're Rasputin, than I'll refer to you as such and hope to develop a better understanding of what that means for you so that I can relate to you as you are and not as you only physically appear.

I accept that anyone is who they identify as unless it's done for fraudulent purposes. The interview clip I saw said Jenner still wanted to be called Bruce for now at this point in the transition, so if that's accurate I'll use that name until another one is accurate and preferred.[/quote]

But where would you draw the line and why would you draw it there?[/quote]

Good question. I don't think I have or anyone has the right to draw "the line" for what is acceptable AS LONG AS no one is being harmed or having their rights violated without their consent. This is because I believe every human has the right to make their own choices and that no one else's judgement of those choices is legitimate or means a darn thing unless the person's opinion was specifically requested. The only thing I think is objectively bad and immoral is non-consensual harm to others...everything else is fine and in my mind perfectly acceptable. The reason I think harming others is unacceptable is because everyone is equally human with inherently equal dignity and worth and an equal right to their own consent and choices and safety.

Where is my personal line? I will respect people enough to go along with and treat them as whoever they identify as in any way, up to the point where they are asking me to condone/support behavior harmful to others. That, I will not do. Otherwise, it's all good with me. Someone's gender identity is nonbinary leaning towards masculine but not completely, except they were born in a dfab body? Fine, cool, tell me your preferred name and pronouns and that'll be that, you're just you to me. Someone is binary trans and I initially knew them as a man but now they're a woman? Wonderful, glad the transition went well. It's good to see you again, how's life been treating you? Someone identifies as non-human otherkin...interesting, please teach me what if anything I may need to know to interact with you in a way that appropriately respects how you view your identity, since this isn't something I'm familiar with and I may make mistakes out of ignorance. Someone identifies with a chosen name and mental identity, rather than their legal name? Wonderful, introduce us, hello Rasputin, good to meet you.

Where is my line for "accepting" things in the definition of truly understanding and believing them? You're right, that's a little harder. We all have cognitive and cultural biases, and I'm working on getting rid of mine. I admit I can't quite wrap my mind around everything and sometimes I find who people are really to be confusing and think "can/how can they really honestly be this thing?" but that's my own personal struggle and at a minimum I understand, acknowledge, accept, and act on the fact that other people are the authority on their lives and their experiences are legitimate even if they're different from mine or outside my understanding.

My only line is do no harm and do not act with malicious intent. I explained above why I draw that line.
[/quote]

In public you would do this, but p[b]rivately would you honestly believe they were as they said they were?[/b] Would you immediately accept their claims [b]or would you require further convincing?[/b][/quote]

To the first, I admitted in my previous post that sometimes I struggle to "believe" or understand how it's possible that some people are certain identities because they're so far outside my own experience that I sometimes can't even comprehend the idea... but that's my problem not the person's and as I work to become more understanding and open in my thoughts I will ALWAYS at a minimum outwardly treat people with the respect I believe they're due no matter what I'm currently thinking.

Regarding the second, I might require more information in order to understand/believe, but in this case what I may think matters little to how I would ACT, and it's not up to anyone else to "convince" me of their identity. If I can't understand it or privately think they must be wrong/making it up, that's my shortcoming to work through, not theirs. People are who they say they are and that should be respected and accepted as legitimate, provided they're not attempting to use their chosen identity to act in a malicious way or to harm others.[/quote]

I would have to disagree with you there. I would not view it as 'my problem' if I did not understood if a person claimed to be different than what they are. I would humor them to an extent.[/quote]

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