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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]
Lets keep this discussion on the merits and try to avoid the personal insults, shall we? [/quote]
No worries - I'm gonna be like you - get personal, then throw a little apology in, and pretend it doesn't matter to me if you accept it.

The author who you allege has simply "regurgitated what the Quran says" is a renowned religious scholar. Is it possible that you are simply discounting his statement because he directly contradicts your statement that the Jahiliyah (age of ignorance) never occurred? Please post your bio so that we may compare your qualification to make such a statement with his. Here is the scholar's bio:

M. Jeurgensmeyer: erector of the Orfalea Center for Global and International Studies, professor of sociology and global studies, and affiliate professor of religious studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara. He is a pioneer in the field of global studies and writes on global religion, religious violence, conflict resolution and South Asian religion and politics. He has published more than three hundred articles and twenty books, including the recent Global Rebellion: Religious Challenges to the Secular State (University of California Press, 2008).

But remember, he is not the only scholar, historian, or anthropologist that refutes your statement that the jahilyah never occurred. The vast majority stand in contradiction to your statement.

There is overwhelming evidence that the period of the jahiliyah occurred and that Prophet Muhammad's revelation elevated the status of women considerably. Any google research will show this.  It seems to me that you may be hoping to hide this fact in your effort to tarnish the religion of Islam. [/quote]
You are misstating the argument. No one questioned that Islam improved the lot of women.  The discussion has always been about the extent of that improvement (was it all that good?) and their prior position (was it all that bad?)  The writing on the time of jahiliya is done primarily through the Quranic lens because there is simply very little independent evidence on how things really were at that time.  Islam gives women many rights but also imposes many, many limitations on these rights.  Pointing these limitations out is not Islamophobic. It's also not Islamophobic to point out that some of the rights attributed to Islam have existed prior to its advent - women did own and inherit property, engage in independent commercial activity and received dowries. It's wrong to claim Islam invented these rights. If you think that tarnishes your religion, whatever. [/quote]

Here's the problem, though. You say the discussion has always been about the extent of that improvement. However, if you judge the extent of that improvement by the practice of Islam by so called Muslim countries today, you will inevitably misinterpret Islam, because as I have stated several times, the condition and treatment of women has deteriorated since the Prophets death, and Muslim countries have reverted back to almost pre islamic times. Hence, your mistake is that to understand the effectiveness of Islam, you are looking at current Muslim society. And you make this make repeatedly through hundreds of posts.

Moreover, what you just wrote was an outright lie. You stated (if it was, in fact, you or another islamophobe) that the Jahiliyah is a bit of a farce, created by the imaginations of Muslims to persuade the world that Islam elevated the status of women. You used Khadija, the rich merchant wife of the Prophet, to show pre islamic women did have rights and were not living in an age of ignorance or darkness. Now that I have provided the evidence of several renowned religious scholars whose assertion directly contradict your opinion, the goal posts have suddenly moved…again. Now you allege you never denied the status of women was improved by Islam, but were always focused on whether it improved it enough.

You then allege there isn't enough evidence of the jahiliyah period. However, these religious scholars concluded that there was indeed a period of time Arabs refer to as the Jahiliyah and it was a time of hedonism and ignorance. They all concluded that Islam did indeed greatly improve the status of women. You then alleged that all these scholars simply relied on the Quran for the basis of their opinion and regurgitated information from the Quran. Renowned religious scholars (historians, archeologists) do not assume the truth of religious text. They look for corroborating evidence. For example, Arabs wrote quite a bit of poetry and their pre islamic poetry was full of lustful descriptions of amorous encounters, adultery, and fornication. This is simply one example of the type of hedonism during the pre-islamic, jahilyah period. You are naive to assume you know how they came to their conclusions.

I'm watching you go around and around the merry-go-round. [/quote]
You think lustful descriptions of amorous encounters are actually proof of low status of women?  There's therapy available to sort that out.

Not all scholars agree on what you posted.   Scholars are required to demonstrate how they came to their conclusions to be taken seriously.  If they don't, I'll make my own conclusions on their rigor. I also posted scholarly work that provides an alternative view. Don't lie that ALL scholars agree.[/quote]

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